Tunic Over A Skirt

[Mother Dean]

Hello All,
My baby is now two and I want him to look more like a boy to modern folks. My plan is to make matching tunics for both sons. The older with short pants and the younger with a skirt. In my mind I can see little belts with pouches and swords and everyone who sees them playing understands immediately that they are both boys, regardless of the skirt.

My problem is that I am not finding examples to support this. Any references would be greatly appreciated. The tunic style that I am going for is inspired by this piece in the Wisconsin Historical Society collection:


Mine will not be yellow, or wool, or have those cute sleeves..... buy the general cut will hopefully be close to the same.

[Marta Vincent]

I don't recall ever seeing pics of tunics over skirts; nor have I seen any original patterns that say to be worn with skirts.  Tunics are worn with trousers (short, long & knickerbockers), from what I have seen. Little boy's skirt suits are generally similar to a button suit with skirt, petti & drawers, some or all buttoned to the shirt, and a short jacket over.

I'd be very interested in seeing any photos found by others of tunics over skirts.

[Mother Dean]

I found two images last night after posting this but I have questions about both. The first one is here: http://www.album1900.com/uk/0003_uk1860s/0003_uk1860s.php

The second one I grabbed off ebay and now I can't find it to read the listing again. I think it was dated from 1850-1900 so not much help there. I think that it's later than our period but would love to know what you all think.

[Malinda Byrne]

What about making the older boy a tunic and short pants, and the younger a frock following the same lines as the tunic that he would wear with drawers and petticoats for now?  As he grows and you are ready to breach him, it could then be used as a tunic? 
Malinda

[Marta Vincent]

The first one IS unusual!  I have never seen a tunic over a skirt before, so it's very interesting.  The one thing I woiuld be wary of, is that their outfits r SO unusual, that it might be ok if your toddler wore it, but if you start a trend and people think it was common, then it will become over-represented in the reenacting community.

The Second one shows a boy in a tunic over pretty pantalets, and the younger boy in a frock with petticoats.  I like Malinda's idea. 

The second one also seems to me to be post-war.  The collars are a bit wide for our era, and the pantalets are also shorter than the ones normally worn in our era too.  In the 60's & 70's they would be knee length or a bit below the knee.  The older boy's hair has a nearly center part which is not typical for the 60's & 70's. it wasn't until the era when girl's hair was swept up onto the back of the head and let hang in curls that boy's hair began to be parted other than on the side.  The soonest I can find anything other than a side part on boy's in fashion prints is late 1870's.  By that time, boy's short pants were also more knee length and not nearly as blousey as earlier.

[Mother Dean]

Matching frock and tunic works for me. I suppose my problem now is "what is a frock?" I suppose just a tunic with a longer, skirt piece at the bottom. 

[Malinda Byrne]

When I use frock, I generally mean a more boyly/ manly name for a dress.    So yes, a tunic with a longer skirt. I think it will be darling to dress the two boys in matching outfits. 
Malinda   

[Mother Dean]

Thanks so much for your guidance ladies.

[rrbeers]

In Liz's boys frock/tunic/button suit pattern the frock is a back buttoning dress worn over drawers and petticoats while the tunic is front opening and is worn over wool or mid-weight cotton pants.

I don't know if that's a mid-century differentiation or if she did that just for ease of use.  I'm sure she'll be along to tell us

[Marta Vincent]

In the little boy specific frock patterns I've seen and used, the boy's frocks are front opening, and the skirt tends to be pleated and not as full as a girl's gathered shirt.  The patterns (French) I use call them tunics, not frocks.

Like this: http://shop.originals-by-kay.com/product.sc?productId=1672&categoryId=53  The pattern shows this tunic/frock as box pleated.  Kathy did directional pleats instead and both are technically correct.  This pattern comes with a fly front knickerbocker trouser pattern - but it is for a boy of 4-6.

Or this: http://shop.originals-by-kay.com/product.sc?productId=716&categoryId=49, and this: http://shop.originals-by-kay.com/product.sc?productId=1205&categoryId=49 both made from the same pattern for a boy of 2-3 years that is worn with pantalets or short trousers (pattern shows pantalets).

Both of these original patterns are front opening, just about knee length and pleated, not gathered or gauged.  So you can make both boys virtually identical tunics, but the older boy gets trousers and the little one pantalets.

[Malinda Byrne]

Rachel,
Thanks for reminding me of what Liz says in her pattern.  I've only made one tunic from it, and missed that piece of information. 
Malinda

[Mother Dean]

Thanks for the extra info!

The baby just turned two and is still in diapers so shouldn't I keep him in a skirt?

[Marta Vincent]

Yes, but you do put pantalets on him, and those "tunics" for little boys, while looking a lot like the older boy's tunics, are much more like a dress.  The baby's tunic can come to his knees, or a bit longer, worn with a petticoat and pantalets.  His brother's tunic comes to mid thigh or a bit longer in length and is worn with trousers.  The style of the tunic, at their ages, can be identical except for skirt length and what is worn under.

[Heidi Hollister]

I am in love with that tunic!  I am going to have to make this up for Jesse...  but, being me, I'd just HAVE to do all that little fancy stuff because I can't do ANYTHING easy.  It is my curse.  Wisconsin Historical Society you say?  I'm going to have to add that picture to my collection of ideas. 

[Elizabeth]

Can we make a short terminology switch: "drawers" is the most common term I've come across for little bifurcated undergarments. Pantalettes is something I've only seen quite a bit earlier.

Tunic versus Frock... I see frock show up for both toddler boys and girls, with back-buttoning details, in the American sources, but there's a LOT of flexibility when we're talking translating European fashion terms, too, so all the variants can refer to the same garment on occasion! I used Tunic v Frock in the pattern to help differentiate between the two for modern reference, as they're both period terms with a great deal of overlap, in my opinion.

[Mother Dean]

Here is where I am with this tunic/frock so far:



Sorry the image is so big.  The fabric doesn't photograph well, so here is a close up:




The buttons are not stitched on. I'm not sure if I like those or want to get some black glass buttons. I read somewhere, in a period mag. I think, that children's clothes should have mother of pearl buttons but I don't care for the look of those on this piece.

The belt belongs to his brother, so I need to make a new one of those also.

Thanks for all of your help with this project.

[Marta Vincent]

Buttons for children can be MOP, shell, china ringers or calicos, or (for boys) metal.

Also, it's not real clear, but it looks as if you lined up the sleeve seam with the side seam.  For boys still wearing tunics and frocks, the sleeves are set the same as for girl's dresses. The original patterns I use, and the extant garments I've seen and examined bear that out.  The sleeve seam lines up with the side seams on shirts but not tunics and frocks.  At this point, if you did line them up with the side seams, I'd leave it and not worry about it.

From research I've done, it appears that boy's clothing up to the point where they truly wear men's clothing, is made at home or by a seamstress.  Men's and older boy's clothing is more often made by a tailor, although there were undoubtedly men and older boys whose suits were also made at home or by a seamstress.

[Mother Dean]

Wow Marta, you have great eyes. I actually messed up and made the body too tight. I added a strip under each arm to give more room in the body so it could go over his head. The sleeves are set just as I would for my girl's clothes, but because of the added strip, the bottom sleeve seams lined up with the side seams of the front bodice piece.... if that makes any sense. When I make it again, for my older son, I'll get it right from the start.

Thanks for clarifying the button issue. I can't remember where I read about the mop. I picked up those brass buttons from a local Revolution/French & Indian War gunsmith shop. I'm not sure that I want to use them so I will have to look into those other options.

When I figured out my mistake, I started searching for more examples of this type of tunic and only came up with a few. Was this a much less common front closure style or am I just looking in the wrong places? All of the examples, that I found in period magazines, button all the way down. I didn't search photographic images because I came up with the extra fabric idea and decided to finish the tunic instead.

[Marta Vincent]

Most did open all the way down, but the ones with a diagonal opening, and those made "in the Russian style" did not.  Those had a placket.  I have some of each type on the website.  Those are all in the sz 6-8 range and the 2 Russian blouses are from an original pattern, and the one with the diagonal opening is adapted from an original pattern that was buttoned all the way down. http://shop.originals-by-kay.com/category.sc?categoryId=53

I think yours is fine and I love the cute 'neat' print.  There didn't see to be many hard & fast rules on tunics for little boys, so you see lots of variety in extant photos.  I have an idea that mother did what worked best for her and the boy in question in most cases of everyday wear.  Special Occasion things were more formalized in style.

Modified to add:  Most of the tunics I've seen in photos have self belts - especially for little ones.  I would suggest you keep the leather one for the older boy and make a self belt with a button for this one. 

[Mother Dean]

Thanks for the information Marta.
So glad that you mentioned about the belt. I was leaning toward a tan, wool belt. I wanted something to break up the pattern. I knew in the back of my mind that it needed to be a self fabric one, so thanks for the push.

It's so funny that you like the print. I got it last year because it was a reproduction and cost $2 or $3 a yard. I started a dress from it and hated it. I scrapped the dress idea and made an apron instead. I have plenty of this stuff for the boy's tunics and anything else I can think of.

When I was looking for examples, the first place I looked was your site. I did look at the blue one but I didn't realize that the Russian Blouse had a diagonal opening as well. I love the red wool, that is beautiful!!