1st toile - does it need changes?

[Meg B]

I don't have a sewing buddy, so I had my DH help me make a quick form with duct tape over my corset and chemise so I could try to drape a basic bodice. It was definitely an "interesting" experience... I ran into a bunch of trouble with the armscye when I was draping and ended up picking apart the lining of an old dress that fit pretty well apart from the length of the bodice. The shapes were pretty close, and I'm wondering if anyone can suggest further alterations to this toile.

Front: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7299019192/
Back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7299001694/
Side: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7299013922/

1. I marked two placements for the waist seam, a higher one with "warm" colored pins and a lower one with "cool" colored pins. I think the higher/"warm" line looks better, but I defer to the experts. You might be able to make out where there is some red stitching at the bottom of the bodice...that's where the original seam was (yikes).

2. I am also wondering if there is too much fabric in the CF, or if that's what is needed for a placket. (On the original dress, the front just closed over my underthings with no wiggle room. Not sure why there seems to be so much extra when it is on the dummy...) If it IS too much, should I just make the darts a bit deeper?

3. The old dress pattern (it was a simplicity pattern, I think the "cold mountain" inspired one from years back) has more seams than the instructions in the dressmaker's guide. There are three seams on the side (extra, skinny side piece), and a CB seam. Should I eliminate one of those side seams? Which one? And should I eliminate the CB seam?

Side seams: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7299008184/
Back seam: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7298995954/

4. And finally, on the toile I draped, I had marked the dropped shoulder a little lower than it is on this one -- is the shoulder too high here? It's probably only 2 finger-widths from the shoulder point.

[Mother Dean]

Total newbie to adults clothing here....

I just wanted to say that you are doing a great job. Love the dummy and kudos for all of your work so far.

Others will come along with answers for your questions as I am not at all qualified to answer any of them.

[Jessamyn]

First of all, that's a great start and you're asking really good questions!

Second, some of your questions can be answered based on these photos, but for others you're really at the point where you need to put this toile on your actual body to make decisions.

Answers:

1. This is one of those things you can't decide definitively until it's on your body. You're on the right track, but note that both waist lines seem to be rising toward the front, which you don't want.

2. Again, you need to put it on- you and the dummy are going to have differences, no matter how careful you are. That aside, with a toile you should not be worrying about how much overlap you have; that's a dressmaking decision. For a toile you only want to be making fitting decisions, so your job is to mark the CF line on both fronts, period. You can calculate and mark the amount of overlap you need later.

3. Yes, you have more seams than you need. Again, it's a little hard to tell on a maani vs. an actual body, but I think I'd ditch the further-back seam. You might want to split the difference, though. And yes, there should definitely not be a CB seam; place that on fold.

4. The shoulder seams are a little hard to see but they do look high.

One more important detail: the back piece is too wide. The curved seams should start higher in the back of the armscye, curve down, and end only an inch or two apart. They are much too far out to the sides right now.

But so far you're doing great!

[Meg B]

Thanks Jessica! I'm still figuring things out...as you can tell :p

Jessamyn, thank you so much! That was so helpful...I'll try to find a minute today to throw everything on and take some new pictures.

I noticed that the biggest difference in my pieces vs. the one on the dummy was the shape of the back, but I figured I must have goofed up. I'll mark the line from my draped toile onto this one before the next try-on. Another silly question, but should I just draw the new line on the toile and cut along it, then add allowances when I trace it out? Seems scary.

Do the darts look okay? They are pretty shalllow and I'm wondering if that is fine or if there ought to be some extra in there to let out if I need to at a later time.

[Mrs.Dixon]

You could just do a false three piece bak and start with a flat back bodice piece.. You just use up like 1/8 of an inch and don't really need to allow for it in the toile. Then there is no fussing with seam allowances or cutting the right shape. Is that what you are asking about?

Look at how she does a false three piece back for her 1830s dress here - (scroll down a bit) http://www.thegracefullady.com/stitch_in_time/1830sgown_journal.html)

[Paula]

Meg -- There is one other thing I am wondering about and can't really tell from your pictures.  Where does the shoulder seam sit (The seam that runs from your neck out to your shoulder?  Not the armscye seam in #4.

Normally that shoulder seam lays toward the back like the side view of the first post in this thread shows http://thesewingacademy.org/index.php?topic=8010.0

[Meg B]

Mrs. Dixon, I like the idea of a faux seam! I think I will still try to make a separate piece for my pattern base, in case it turns out to be necessary for something...it's eye-opening to realize I don't *need* to have one, though! Her instructions are so clear -- thanks for the link!

Paula, it is just slightly behind my natural shoulder. I'm glad you caught that -- the angle doesn't really look "right" to me either when I compare it to originals and the instructions in the DG. I scribbled a new line for the shoulder that angles back a little more sharply when I went back to work on it this morning.

I dropped the shoulder line down a few inches and think it looks better now ("almost horizontal" as I believe it ought to be, but it does make the shoulders look wiiiiiide, holy cow...), but I'm having  little bit of trouble figuring out where to have the back seam meet the armscye in the back, and I'm also not sure what the whole pattern piece should look like with the new lower shoulder. I realize this is probably impossible to visualize without the photos...I hope I can get my long-suffering husband to take some photos of the marked up toile tonight after our little one goes to bed!

[Meg B]

Here are the pics!

Front Shoulder: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306282076/
Side (back is at the left): http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306287276/
Back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306292084/
Back Shoulder: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306297496/
Side Front: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306302524/
Front: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306276502/
Side: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7306305986/

I tried to use different colors for each of the possible back seam placements. I couldn't stop messing with it, so there are lot of lines...sorry! I'm thinking either the purple or the orange (bottom two). The black pen lines are the original seams. I marked the new shoulder placement and side seam placement in red with cross hatching. The new dropped shoulder is marked in red also. I used a string around the waist to find the new waist placement and it fell somewhere between the two rows of pins -- unfortunately I marked it after my husband took the photos, but I'm pretty confident it's in the right spot now.

[Jessamyn]

Wow, you're jumping forward by leaps and bounds!

I really like the blue(?) back seam line, the one that is closest to the center at the waist.

All the seams around the shoulder look good, including the scye and the top of the back, and so does the CF!

The side seam should not curve like that - it would give you grain problems. I like the angle of the front piece's existing side seam; I'd just move it back about an inch.

Finally, a little fine-tuning: I think your front darts are a little short. They're there to make a smooth curve from bust peak to waist, so they need to get closer to the bust peak to do that. It's subtle, but see how it's puckering slightly at their tops in the pics 9 and 10? That's because they end long before your curve does.

The other puckering in picture 9, coming from the side, I think is just from not having the weight of a skirt to hold the body down in the back - since it's not happening in pic 10.

All in all you're looking really good!

[rrbeers]

As Jessamyn says, you're doing GREAT!! I KNOW how challenging this is, BUT when it's done it makes all future dressmaking projects SO much quicker and easier (excepting when you lose or gain weight! --Though even then, it should give you a good jumping place)!!

One thing I noticed is your armscye is maybe not as snug as it should be to the front of your arm/arm pit.  I could be wrong, as I'm still a novice "fitter", but you may want to add some more fabric there.  The weird thing is it looks good in photo 011, but not so good in 010.  Maybe it's just how you're holding your arm in that picture Just something to check and have the experts look at again.

Also, I noticed in your front picture that you have an "unevenness"--i.e. it's probably not pinned evenly; as you can see there's "extra" fabric at the bottom on your right side (our left side when looking at the picture).  The unevenness causes the waistline to be skewed, as well.  I pinned unevenly a LOT when I was working on my toile last year (it's really easy to do!) and had to teach myself to REALLY be conscience of that when pinning it closed.

Again, KEEP going! You're doing really well--you should have seen my first attempts! 

[Meg B]

I'm back with my second attempt. I had to put this thing away for a while because I was losing my mind.

Sorry about the pictures, I haven't been able to train my toddler to take photos for me yet.

Front: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7616972848/

I realized once I tried this on that those darts are way out in outer space and that I overcompensated and made them much too long. It's hard to see but I marked the real bust point and tentative placement for the new darts. Also, the current darts are pretty sharply angled, should I straighten them out? Completely? Somewhat? I am getting some diagonal wrinkling from shoulder to bust on both sides, and don't know why. The other small horizontal wrinkles disappear when I put a little "weight" on the bottom of the bodice and think those may not be an issue when there's a skirt attached.

Back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7616982836/

The side back pieces are much too wide around the waist, and I'll try to refit them when I can get a second pair of hands to help, but for now I just folded the CB piece over at the seam a little. It's pinned a bit crookedly right now.

Side: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7616976076/

I had a little conflicting advice on the side front seam -- the DG says to angle it from armscye to waist, past the "waist horizon" which puts the seam on a slight bias and allows tightly fitted bodices to "stretch" a bit, but I was also advised *not* to cut it on the bias, so it's cut here on the straight and set back slightly. The armscye has been giving me the worst trouble. Is the shoulder right? It feels so tight, and the under arm seems so high! I cut the right (my right) armscye down somewhat, and the left is left as I originally drafted it. Should I follow the line made by the side back seam across the top of my upper arm in a straight, horizontal line? I sort of drew the line on where I thought it should go, but it is hard to see. The fit just feels so weird...I know the armscye is supposed to be high, but I'm still balking a little.

Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement! It's been really helpful so far...this thing is still a mess but I'm amazed I've made it this far 

[Elizabeth]

Shortening the darts will help; they need to end *just* before your fullest bust point, so the full amount of fabric is available just there. Keep them angled from bust toward center front; it's a very graceful line that looks well on most figures.

With the armscye, you should be sweating on your dress. You'll probably need to test fit a sleeve into the armscye to decide if you want to cut the armscye a little more in the armpit or not. You don't have to do a full sleeve, just a cap, enough to set in and feel.

You can cut the side front seam fairly vertical, or on the bias; there's no problem with stabilization on the bias, though, if that's what the other advice was warning against. You'd have more issue if the bias was on the center front, but even that's able to be worked around with period techniques.

You're doing a great job! If you need a "transitional" dress between a modern armscye and a period one, then do it.

[Meg B]

Thank you, Elizabeth! I'm going to fiddle with the darts and make a test sleeve.

Can you tell me if the shoulder seam running over the bicep looks okay? I think it would look nice to visually carry that back side seam right over the arm horizontally.

[Elizabeth]

The shoulder seam intersection with the armscye (and your adjusted scye drop on the bodice) looks pretty good to me. The exact positioning is variable, but you're right in the range I'd expect to see, based on period diagrams, extant dresses, and the few images we get of women with their backs or side backs to the camera, so if it's comfortable, go for it!

[Meg B]

I think this is it! 

Front: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7633141424/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7633137068/

Side: (this is the higher armscye side, and it is pulling, other side is better) http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7633153784/

Back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7633149696/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47532802@N05/7633145648/

I pinned the heaviest skirt I had at hand to the bottom of the bodice to add some weight. There is a bit of difference between the two sides, mostly due to the very slightly enlarged armhole on the left (my right), which I think pulls less. It's still way up there (I did, in fact, sweat on the muslin during fitting), and the darts are a little tidier, so I'll pattern off that side.I lopped off a little too much length in the back, so I'll have to add that back. Also, every time I try the toile on, I seem to find "extra" fabric in the center back panel at the waist. I've probably taken it in at least an 1.5" already...what am I doing that is causing this to happen? There is also a bit of a crease at the back bodice/shoulder where it meets the scye, is that okay or do I need to mess with it?

I think this is a huge improvement over the first toile. Can I call this done and move on to the fun part?

[Elizabeth]

The vertical crease is giving you a cue as to where to trim the armscye drop at the back of the arm. The fabric may well be stretching on you through the back; this is common when fitting, and you might want to take it off, hit it with a good bit of steam, let it dry, and give it another try to see if stretch was a problem. Or, cut it out and test it in a very firm fabric, or even paper, to see if there's been over-stretching.

This is looking Quite Nice! Give yourself one more iteration in muslin, to incorporate all the changes and refinements you've mentioned above, and test things out.

Ideally, the back curved details will be closer at the waist (2" max); you can actually just draw them on a flat back, in a "pleasing arc"... no real firm rule on exact shape, as every figure is a bit different.