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Author Topic: The elusive and mythical solid cotton dress/ wrapper?  (Read 1180 times)
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Joanna Jones
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« on: April 05, 2012, 10:44:59 AM »

The met says this is cotton - say it isn't so!

http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/80035686?img=0
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NanciG
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 11:23:03 AM »

Wow, that is a long shoulder seam on the sack. 

Nanci
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 11:46:57 AM »

Looks like a Saque & Petticoat ensemble, and it may be cotton; but there were wool challis' that were as fine & smooth as cotton, and many blends (wart one fiber, weft another) in combos of cotton/wool, wool/silk, and others; plus less well known fibers like pineapple cloth, etc.  So it could be one of those kinds.
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Mother Dean
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2012, 11:50:07 AM »

"Among the materials for dresses for the autumn and coming winter poplins hold a distinguished place: these are manufactured with all the designs hitherto reserved exclusively for silks. The poplins are at length freed from the eternal stripes more or less wide, and the classic checks more or less large. Despite, however, the inconceivable variety and incontestable grace of these designs, we must avow our preference for the beautiful poplin of plain colors, some admirable examples of which we had lately an opportunity of examining in a large Parisian house. It must be owned, however, that these dresses are not economical, as a single stain destroys the more delicate colours. They are, however, very pretty and very fashionable. A variety of shades have been invented for these dresses, which escapes all classification: for instance, we have some of the colour of wet sand, others of dry sand. Again, the shade termed Havannah brown inclines sometimes to olive, sometimes to pure brown; as to the greys, they are indescribable, ranging from the purest silvery grey to the warm lilacy tints. All these various shades will be adopted for what the French term demi-toilette."

I'll have to look for the date on this. I'm sure it is 1862 but not sure of the month.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:51:56 AM by Mother Dean » Logged

Micaila
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2012, 12:11:54 PM »

I see this quote pop up from time to time, but it is my understanding that "poplin" in this time period, and earlier,
refers to a fabric with a silk warp and a worsted or woolen weft.
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Mother Dean
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2012, 12:22:15 PM »

Yeah, I always have to read it a couple of times. I sited this on my blog back in November after I read in a period magazine (after seeing it on another blog). Now I can't find the book. Sad  I seem to remember that they were talking about cottons.
Also, this should not be taken as an ok to have solid cottons. This would be only for the very well to do who had the money to spend on such fragile, expensive materials.
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Dana Repp
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2012, 01:30:11 PM »

Would they have categorized it as cotton if it were poplin (wool & silk)? It has a little sheen to it so it makes it hard to think cotton.
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2012, 01:48:04 PM »

I have no idea about the fabric (although its lovely! I'd  hate to spill anything on it though!) but I really love the cut of the sacque, and the bit of shaping at the back, and the gathering along the shoulder seams.
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Sarah J. Meister
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Joanna Jones
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 04:40:29 PM »

Wow, that is a long shoulder seam on the sack. 

Nanci

I think the dummy is way too small - the sleeves are way too long, and if you put the shirt on a dummy with wider shoulders, the shoulder seam and sleeve length would be better.  Also, if you look in the back, the gathering is much too low for this mannequin - I'll bet the woman this was made for was taller and broader.
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Jessamyn
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 01:30:22 PM »

Yeah, I always have to read it a couple of times. I sited this on my blog back in November after I read in a period magazine (after seeing it on another blog). Now I can't find the book. Sad  I seem to remember that they were talking about cottons.

Generally the fashion notes of the time don't mention fiber, because they assume you know what good poplin is made of (silk and wool), just as we now don't say "cotton denim," we just say "denim." The fact that the quotation above is referencing fall and winter clothing gives yet further weight to the idea that this is silk/wool poplin that we're talking about. Here are a few references to back up the idea that fashionable midcentury poplin is not a cotton fabric:

From The Art Journal of London, 1863:
"While thus the broad fabrics formed entirely of silk ceased to be executed, except in the smallest quantities, the mixed fabric, formed of a peculiar combination of silk and wool, and known as tabinet or poplin, still retained its ground in Dublin. For a time even this production of Irish looms was in danger, in consequence of its having been found impossible to form any poplin having a greater width than sixteen inches. This resulted from the excessive brittleness of the worsted yarn, caused by the high degree of finish required, in order to secure for the completed fabric an uniformly smooth and silky surface. Recent improvements in machinery have overcome these, as they have overcome so many other difficulties and obstacles to the advance of manufactures, and now the woollen yarns are made so elastic that poplin can be woven of any width."

From Le Follet, 1863:
"We have recently seen a very pretty dress of two colours, intended for autumn wear.... A plain long gored skirt of light stone-coloured silk, with highbuttoned body, and very small open sleeves. Over this was worn a tunic of royal blue silk, also gored, reaching down to the knee in front, but longer behind. A low body, pointed at top and bottom, without sleeves, with a postilion basque, completed this very elegant toilette. This style is likely to come into great vogue; but will never be in danger of becoming common, as no lady with any pretension to good taste, would make it in any but rich materials?such as silk, poplin, &c. The tunic and low body made of black silk, would have a very recherche effect, and might he worn with any coloured silk or poplin skirt."

From Harper's, 1862:
"Frankie and his mother sat looking in the pleasant coal-fire, ... until it was time to go to church. So mamma bid Frankie go up stairs to be dressed, telling Susan to put on his brown poplin, as that was warmest and best suited to the season. ...'Susan, ask mamma if I mayn't wear my gray suit?' Susan went off to intercede, but without avail. There was a raw, cold wind, and it was quite right that he should wear the warmest garments."

As the 19th century progressed there were actually some poplins being made partly or even wholly of cotton (or linen), but they were considered very second-rate and would not have been recommended as stylish in a fashion magazine. From Chambers's Encyclopedia, 1865:
"PO'PLIN (Fr. papellne). ...the best modern poplins consist of a warp of silk and a weft of worsted, which gives substance, combined with great softness and elasticity, to the material. Cotton, and even flax yarns ore substituted for silk, wholly or partially, in making cheap goods, but they are very far inferior in beauty to the true poplins."

From the 1863 story Husks:
"Sarah's hat?a broad-brimmed 'flat' of brown straw?had fallen back upon her shoulders, and the sea-breeze played in her hair, raising the short and loose strands, and giving to the whole a rough, 'frowzy' look. Her plain linen collar and undersleeves showed her complexion and hands to the worst possible advantage. ... Her gray poplin dress had lost most of its original gloss, and being one of Mrs. Hunt's bargains?'a cheap thing, but plenty good for that outlandish Shrewsbury'?already betrayed its cotton warp by creases that would not be smoothed, and an aspect of general limpness?a prophecy of speedy, irremediable shabbiness. Cast loosely about her shoulders was a light shawl, green, with black sprigs?another bargain; and beyond the skirt of her robe appeared the toe and instep of a thick-soled gaiter, very suitable for a tramp through damp sand, yet any thing but becoming to the foot it protected."
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Ginger Lane
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 07:15:23 AM »

This seems an appropriate place to put another museum entry, again from the Met, accession number 1981.149.1a, b:

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/80009174



It says it is cotton and wool. I assume the wool is the braiding and the brush braid; the Met usually lists materials from most to least amount. A silk dress is "silk, cotton," cotton being the lining.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:17:36 AM by Ginger Lane » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 07:18:47 AM »

Uh oh this is the dress that caused the big fight between my friend and I.  She is shopping for fabric for very first dress and really likes solid colors but we are having a hard time finding wool or silk in her price range.  I keep telling her no solid cottons and then she found this dress.
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 07:39:35 AM »

Uh oh this is the dress that caused the big fight between my friend and I.  She is shopping for fabric for very first dress and really likes solid colors but we are having a hard time finding wool or silk in her price range.  I keep telling her no solid cottons and then she found this dress.
Oh, dear. Sad I do understand - it really is striking, and appealing to modern eyes with its simplicity.
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Mrs.Dixon
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 07:45:34 AM »

Sometimes I don't think people can tell the difference between a fine wool and a cotton. When I let people feel my wool dress, they did not believe that it was wool. Just saying.
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bevinmacrae
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 10:20:58 AM »

To me, the first ensemble looks linen-like. The second outfit is hanging quite a bit like wool. I vote mixed fiber for that one.
It is tough to find brighter-colored wools, but they are out there, and so worth it! Have you noticed that the first dress looks, well, really wrinkly? I wonder if that's another reason why people didn't do solid color cotton dresses. At least if it was patterned you wouldn't notice the wrinkles so much, and wool hangs so nicely!
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 12:10:48 PM »

To me, the first ensemble looks linen-like. The second outfit is hanging quite a bit like wool. I vote mixed fiber for that one.


Really? The second one looks just like cotton to me, the way the gathers pull and crease and wrinkle. I've never had wool hang like that. Not that I've worked with every wool out there, of course.  Roll Eyes
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