Laughing Moon Shirt #107

[rrbeers]

I'm going to make DH a shirt from this pattern.  I will be making the changes mentioned in this thread to make it appropriate for 1860s events.

Unfortunately, I am clueless as to what "view" of shirt, collar and cuff options are appropriate for 1860s period.  Can anyone tell me what is/is not appropriate?

[Elaine Robeck]

I'm doing the same thing.  Do you have the pattern yet?  It give specific recommendations for different time periods.  The pattern says that view A and view C are good for the 1860 .  The directions also go into great detail about collar, cuffs and neckwear.  This, of course, assumes that the information is correct, but it is a place to start.

[rrbeers]

Yes, I do have the pattern.  But most of the pieces state that they're good for 1845-1920.  I think that's a little generous.  Of course, I could be wrong!!

[DonSmith]

I'm going to make DH a shirt from this pattern.  I will be making the changes mentioned in this thread to make it appropriate for 1860s events.

Unfortunately, I am clueless as to what "view" of shirt, collar and cuff options are appropriate for 1860s period.  Can anyone tell me what is/is not appropriate?

You might check this thread.
http://thesewingacademy.org/index.php?topic=7266.0

I used the same pattern to make up my shirt but my notes are specific to a dress shirt.

[rrbeers]

Thank you, Don.  I did see that when I searched the forum for more info on it. 

DH would like View A.  Is the pocket appropriate for 1860s or should I leave that off?

Would the short collar (with wide spread) or the tall collar (with no spread) be more (or equally?) appropriate for 1860s? Are either of these more/less formal?

Are all of the cuff options appropriate for 1860s (they are stated on the pattern instructions that they are)? I am planning on putting it in the seam of the shirt rather than it's own slit.

[rrbeers]

Bumping this up.

I have the fabric now, so answers asap would be really helpful.  If I knew where to look to compare styles, I would....but I don't 

Thanks so much.

[Elaine Robeck]

Your questions challenged me to look further into the details of the shirt.  I looked at the MET and found quite a few shirts.  The collars were hard to see but it looked as though the tall and short attached collars were good.  I saw no pockets that I recall.

http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collection_database/the_costume_institute/listview.aspx?page=6&sort=1&sortdir=asc&keyword=shirt&fp=1&dd1=8&dd2=0&hi=0&ov=0

[rrbeers]

Thank you, Elaine! That's very helpful! Hopefully the museum dating is right

[rrbeers]

Well, I guess I'll go with View A with no pocket with the 'white star' cuff.  I'm still not sure about the collar....but I guess I'll just wing it (no pun intended) and hope for the best--unless someone replies before I start .

[Elaine Kessinger]

Miz Rachel-
Are you going with an attached or detached collar?

I have found that the short stand attached collar is fine. The tall stand attached collar gives more of the Edwardian style... not what we're looking for.

For detachable, look at the tall stand (looks like some of the older gents and politicians of our era), the short stand,  the stand and fold, or the wing.. the one that is rounded is so tall as to be more appropriate for later dates.

The cuffs I have seen have all been square, or mostly so.

The shirts of this era with pockets that I have seen are over-shirts/ work-shirts/ smocks... not "regular" shirts.

I have forgotten the exact names the company gives them, so if you need me to try to describe them further.. let me know.. I'll answer more promptly than previously. I've been in the midst of moving in a rush... so things have been somewhat jumbled. Good luck.

[Carolann Schmitt]

The cuffs I have seen have all been square, or mostly so.

I have several original shirt with a curved cuff.  No matter which shape you make, place the buttonhole close to the seam that joins the cuff to the sleeve, not centered on the cuff like on modern shirts.

Carolann

[LissaWilson]

The cuffs I have seen have all been square, or mostly so.

I have several original shirt with a curved cuff.  No matter which shape you make, place the buttonhole close to the seam that joins the cuff to the sleeve, not centered on the cuff like on modern shirts.

Carolann

Do you mean way up high on the cuff? Whoops, I wish I had known that yesterday  .

[Carolann Schmitt]

Yes, way up high as in 1/2" below the seam.  Buttons-and-buttonholes centered in the middle of the cuff begin to appear about the same time ready-to-wear shirts become available. 

Don't worry about if you've already done the buttonholes. You can change it on the next shirt. 

Carolann

[rrbeers]

Carolann,

Thank you for the warning on buttonhole placement!


Elaine,

THANK YOU, thank you, thank you! That is so helpful! I DO understand about having a "real life", too! I occupied myself with other projects and when I get those done, I'll get started on this shirt!

For future reference, how are the detachable tall standing collar (outdated for 60s, right?), detachable overlapping standing collar, detachable standing collar with spread? If you follow the link in my first post and scroll down there are pictures of the collars with their specific names.

Also, for the neckwear, are the dates on those all correct? Here's a picture of the insert:

[Elaine Kessinger]

Okay... the specific names of the detachable collars...

The "short fold over" is suitable for this sort of look (it's a fairly popular style for young-ish to middle-ish gents, all societal strata): http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?evl=full-image;view=entry;subview=detail;entryid=x-pss6.b001.i15;viewid=LYSH2297.TIF;med=1;sid=8f256b7922a0ee4765eedc0f41e4d045;c=hpichswp;cc=hpichswp;corig=hpichswp;lasttype=boolean;lastview=thumbnail;np=prev

The "tall fold over" is (in my opinion, and realize this is only my opinion) too tall for our era. It will produce a look similar too: http://www.flickr.com/photos/litp111/3187963449/ (thanks to whomever posted this picture, if you need it removed, let me know)

The "tall rounded fold over" is (in my opinion, and realize this is only my opinion) too tall for our era. It will produce a look similar too: http://deadbutnotgone.net/?attachment_id=39

The "tall standing" is suitable for this sort of look (on both Mr. Breckenridge and Mr. Douglas, which is why I associate the look with politicians, statesmen, and conservative men of business): http://www.filsonhistorical.org/collections-and-exhibits/research-tools/lincoln%27s-kentucky/the-civil-war/the-election-of-1860.aspx

The "overlapping standing" is suitable for this sort of look: http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?med=1;q1=PSS%206;rgn1=hpichswp_ci;sid=8f256b7922a0ee4765eedc0f41e4d045;size=20;c=hpichswp;lasttype=boolean;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;subview=detail;cc=hpichswp;entryid=x-pss6.b001.i10;viewid=LYSH2293.TIF;start=1;resnum=10

The "standing with a spread" is suitable for this sort of look (much like the "tall standing" only not so high on the neck): http://www.mikemedhurst.com/Image_pages/CornetPlayer.html

The "wing" is suitable for this sort of look: (unfortunately this is somewhat obscured by the beard) http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/collection/artifacts/MP-1975.67.26

____________________________________________________________________________________

Please note that these are the impressions I have gotten from the pattern pieces on offer in the pattern work up. The creators of the pattern may have had entirely different looks in mind when creating the specific patterns. These are ONLY MY OPINIONS and should be taken as such.

[rrbeers]

Elaine, that is SO helpful!! Thank you!! Again!

Any thoughts on the neckwear?

[Elaine Kessinger]

Not to discourage this pattern... but cravats in our era are so simple, they all seem over-engineered.

A simple middle size cravat- 2" wide by 6 feet long... will create looks like:
 http://www.mikemedhurst.com/Image_pages/CornetPlayer.html  and
 http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/collection/artifacts/MP-1975.67.26
 
A slightly thinner cravat- 1.5" wide by 6 feet long.. will create looks like:
  http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?med=1;q1=PSS%206;rgn1=hpichswp_ci;sid=8f256b7922a0ee4765eedc0f41e4d045;size=20;c=hpichswp;lasttype=boolean;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;subview=detail;cc=hpichswp;entryid=x-pss6.b001.i10;viewid=LYSH2293.TIF;start=1;resnum=10

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?evl=full-image;view=entry;subview=detail;entryid=x-pss6.b001.i15;viewid=LYSH2297.TIF;med=1;sid=8f256b7922a0ee4765eedc0f41e4d045;c=hpichswp;cc=hpichswp;corig=hpichswp;lasttype=boolean;lastview=thumbnail;np=prev

A slightly more wide cravat- 3-4" wide by 6 feet long will create looks like:
  http://www.filsonhistorical.org/collections-and-exhibits/research-tools/lincoln%27s-kentucky/the-civil-war/the-election-of-1860.aspx
 
 http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?med=1;q1=PSS%206;rgn1=hpichswp_ci;sid=7880151566753badfef6d158bc2acaad;size=20;c=hpichswp;lasttype=boolean;view=entry;lastview=thumbnail;subview=detail;cc=hpichswp;entryid=x-pss6.b001.i21;viewid=LYSH2303.TIF;start=1;resnum=20

A "rolled" cravat- 45" square- see the following thread, post number 47 for how to tie (thanks Ian McWherter)- http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?20701-Cravats-Worn-by-the-Working-Class./page5&highlight=cravat

and will produce looks such as the wider cravats depicted above or working class "kerchiefs" such as seen here: http://www.paulfrecker.com/pictureDetails.cfm?pagetype=home&typeID=20&ID=891

[Maggie Koenig]

They did also do pretied cravats that one just buckles around the neck.  Its how guys can get those nice pretty knots and bows every time 

[DonSmith]

I made up the "tall standing" collar from this pattern but it looked more to my eye like a Regency Era style then the 1850-60 period I wished to emulate.

[LissaWilson]

Ok, I am making up a collar from this pattern and I just wanted to note that to make the short fold-over collar, use pieces 43, 44, & 45 NOT pieces 43, 45, & 46. There are some discrepancies in the pattern and the first set of pattern pieces is the correct one.

Also, the key to a nice, stiff collar is starch, not interfacing  .