the top ten

[bevinmacrae]

Finding out about things like heel stays and what to line vests with has me thinking I know alot less about mens wear than I thought I did. So it would be helpful to me if you could put up a sort of "top ten" things (of course, I'm hoping for more than just ten!) that are little known or unknown about mens clothing at this time. Heel stays are a prime example. Another would be that vest backings were usually brown polished cotton. Little things like that that if we hope to reproduce this clothing and have well-dressed men, we need to know. Kind of "tricks of the trade" that every well-dressed man back then would have been very well aquinted with as a matter of course.

~bevin

[Jim_Ruley]

Hi Bevin,

It might be easier to organize this by category:  Coats, vests, trousers etc.

One that surely rates highly for coats is proper pockets.  Tail pockets were almost universal on frock coats; flapped ones rarely if ever seen.  For looser-fitting coats like sacks, the other way around.

Thanks,

Jim R.

[bevinmacrae]

See, I never would have known that!

I guess I'm just looking for little hints and things that can help me go in the right direction with men's clothes. I know I can always ask for specifics here, but sometimes I assume that b/c I've seen it done a certain way before, or b/c it makes sense to do a certain way, that that must be right way, when in fact, it may not be at all. I just want to spare myself some "gee, guess that wasn't the right way to do it" moments!

~bevin

[Jim_Ruley]

b/c it makes sense to do a certain way, that that must be right way

This actually applies more than we realize, though you kind of have to get inside the tailor's head to figure it out.  For instance, the leather facings on silk satin vests are probably not decorative, but protect the fabric from the suspender buttons.  Linen vests are left unpadded, or have removable padding, because they were intended to be laundered.  And so on...

[Carolann Schmitt]

... but sometimes I assume that b/c I've seen it done a certain way before...
~bevin

The issue here is: Where have you seen it done that way? With the exception of the work done by Jim, Brian Merrick and Kara Bartels at Corner Clothiers, and a handful of others, most of the reproduction men's civilian garments are based on inaccurate patterns and vague concepts of how clothing was made. Finding original men's garments to study and review is harder than finding original women's garments, but going back to the source is much better than basing your work on a copy of a copy of someone's impression of what might have been worn.

I haven't had a chance to give a lot of thought to your "top ten" list, but I'll add some general comments:
-  Pressing properly during construction is a must!
-  Hand-sewn buttonholes were finely done. They're so fine and evenly stitched that they can be mistaken for machine made at first glance.
-  Dress shirts are beautifully constructed with many fine details and careful stitching.

Regards,
Carolann

[bevinmacrae]

It's funny, I used to think the guys had it easy. You know. Your unit decides for you what you are going to wear and where you are going to obtain such things. I thought the ladies had it hard b/c they really had to research and find their own way on what to wear b/c the market has been flooded with inaccuracies. I really thought the guys had it right. Now I see diferently. Now I see that the men really have a long way to go if they want things that are accurrate. as you stated, there are very few tailors out there doing things right. There are very few existing garments to look at. So what is a gentleman who wants to dress appropriately to do? He has alot of work ahead of him! Tailoring seems to be a "lost art" now adays. It seems that there were tailors who made men's garments and mantuamakers who made women's garments, but most women were taught to sew, so they could also make their own garments. Most men, concerned with their own business, did not. Seamstressing was not a trained, aprenticed trade, whereas tailoring was. Lacking tailors to do even modern work today, it's very difficult to recreate men's stuff! All the little things a tailor would know from years of apprenticeship, are things I have no clue about. Is anybody going to be offering an appreticeship opportunity with a tailor? Seems the difference is that women's garments are made to fit the woman, men's garments make the man into the shape he wants? Is that  right? So a tailor is really an artist in a way. Changing reality and forcing fabric to bend to his whim.

Ok, long tangent. I guess I'm still trying to grasp this whole thing!

Now a real question: can you give me a sketch of the shape of a shawl collar on a vest and explain how to acheive it? I imagine that you use pad stitching, but I am having trouble visualizing the shapes of peices. Also, could you talk about buttons? What kinds used with what fabrics. Sizes. For vests. I really need to get DeVere's, I have this feeling that alot of my questions could be answered in there and I wouldn't have to bug you for them so much! Thanks infinately for your patience. i have no idea why men's stuff seems like a "new frontier" of totally foreign things to me.

~bevin

[Carolann Schmitt]

Mid-19th century military reenacting has been popular since the early 1950s. Some of the "founding fathers" of research on uniforms and women's clothing were doing ground-breaking work in the early 1970s. Much of this research was done by members of the North-South Skirmish Association (N-SSA).

While some of us in the hobby have always been interested in men's civilian clothing, we've been few and far between until the last decade or so. It is only recently that there has been much more interest in men's clothing. Someone interested in learning about men's apparel (myself included) has a LOT of work ahead of them to understand how men dressed. One needs to study the general fashion trends, appropriate textiles, tailoring AND sewing techniques, appropriate accessories, social customs and practices, etc. Essentially, we're starting where the military and women's branch of the hobby was 40-50 years ago.

Men's garments are not difficult to reproduce. The do require learning new skills and techniques, and they can be VERY labor intensive. Most men don't understand why they have to pay more for a properly tailored frock coat than they did for their firearm. The photos Jim posted are self-explanatory: these garments take a LOT of work.

Re: Shawl collar on a vest. If you do not have access to a period tailoring manual, many of the general costume sources on men's clothing will have at least a few drafts of period garments. Past Patterns, Simplicity's Martha McCain patterns and Folkwear all have patterns for a vest with a shawl collar. Pad-stitching is usually not necessary, although an interfacing is. Most of the shape comes from the cut of the collar, the rest comes from proper pressing and steaming.

Buttons are a whole 'nother topic - and a rather large one at that - that I'll leave for later.

There will be a number of original men's garments on display at the Conference. I think you'll get a much better idea about the overall look, construction, textiles, etc. once you have a chance to see them. In the meantime, you may want to look at some of these sources;

Brown, William L. III.  Thoughts on Men’s Shirts in America 1750-1900.  Gettysburg, PA: Thomas Publications, 1999.
Buck, Anne.  Victorian Costume and Costume Accessories.  New York:  Universe Books, 1961.
Byrd, Penelope. The Male Image: Men’s Fashion in Britain, 1300-1970. London: B.T. Batsford, Ltd., 1979
Chenoune, Farid. A History of Men’s Fashions. Paris: Flammarion, 1993
Colle, Doriece.  Collars…Stocks…Cravats: A History and Costume Dating Guide to Civilian Men’s Neckpieces 1655-1900.  Emmaus, PA: Rodale Press, 1972.
Conkling, Margaret. The American Gentlemen’s Guide to Politeness and Fashion. New York: Derby and Jackson, 1857
Cunnington, C. Willet and Phillis Cunnington. Handbook of English Costume in the Nineteenth Century.  Boston:  Plays, Inc.  1970.
Dalrymple, Priscilla Harris.  American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs.  New York:  Dover Publications, 1991.
Davenport, Milia.  The Book of Costume, Volume I.  New York:  Crown Publishers, 1948.
de Marly, Diana. Fashion for Men:  An Illustrated History. New York: Holmes & Meier, 1985.
Devere, Louis. The Handbook of Practical Cutting on the Centre Point System (1866).  Revised and enlarged edition edited by R.L. Shep. Mendocino, CA: R.L.Shep, 1986.
Harvey, John. Men in Black. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1995
Luchetti, Cathy. Men of the West: Life on the American Frontier. New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 2004.
Hill, Margaret Hamilton, and Peter A. Bucknell.  The Evolution of Fashion: Pattern and Cut From 1066 to 1930.  New York:  Drama Book Publishers, 1967.
Kidwell, Claudia Brush.  Suiting Everyone: The  Democratization of Clothing in America. Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1974.
Lambert, Miles. Fashion in Photographs 1860-1880. London: B.T. Batsford, 1991
Perrot, Phillippe.  Fashioning the Bourgeoisie: A History of Clothing in the Nineteenth Century. Trans. Richard Bienvenu.  Princeton, NJ:  Princeton University Press, 1994.
Severa, Joan.  Dressed for the Photographer:  Ordinary Americans & Fashion 1840-1900.  Kent, OH:  Kent State University Press, 1995.
-----.   My Likeness Taken: Daguerreian Portraits in America. Kent, Ohio: The Kent State University Press, 2005.
Shep, R.L., ed. Early Victorian Men. Fort Bragg, CA: R.L.Shep, 2001.
Shep, R.L. and Gail Cariou. Shirts & Men’s Haberdashery 1840s to 1920s. Mendocino, CA: R.L. Shep, 1999.
Shep, R.L. and W.S. Salisbury. Civil War Gentlemen: 1860s Apparel Arts & Uniforms. Mendocino, CA: R.L. Shep, 1994.
Tortora, Phyllis and Keith Eubank.  A Survey of Historic Costume.  New York:  Fairchild Publications, 1989.
Waugh, Norah. The Cut of Men’s Clothes 1600-1900.  New York: Theatre Art Books, 1964.

Regards,
Carolann

[Jim_Ruley]

To add to Carolann's list, here are a few books I'd recommend:

"Tailor's Guide:  The Making and Repairing of Trousers, Vests, and Coats."  P. N. Hasluck, La Belle Sauvage, London, 1901.  Reprinted by Rick Haven, Little Village Tailor, Williamsburg, VA 1994.

I don't know if this reprint is still available, but it's well worthwhile.  It's essentially a one-volume training course for tailors ca. 1901.  It begins with the correct way to hold a needle and tailor's thimble, and ends with instruction for cutting and making frock and morning coats.  The language can be kind of thick, but the illustrations are good.

"Classic Tailoring Techniques:  A Construction Guide for Men’s Wear."  Roberto Cabrera.  New York:  Fairchild Publications, 1983.

This is about modern tailoring, but it's interesting to see the same techniques still in use.  Good techniques for pockets.

"The Art of the Tailor:  With a Needle, a Thimble and 10,000 Stitches."  Robert Doyle.  Stratford, Ontario, Canada.  2005, Sartorial Press Publications.

Although expensive, this book is a work of art, illustrating all kinds of men's clothing from late Renaissance to 1970's.  Tailor's drafts from some of DeVere's to modern day are given, and some good construction information.  Kind of expensive though (about $70).

"Ready-Made Democracy:  A History of Men’s Dress in the American Republic, 1760- 1860."  Michael Zakim.  University of Chicago Press, 2003.

This is not a sewing or tailoring book, but a history of the ready-to-wear clothing industry.  Still very valuable for understanding how men's clothing changed during the early 19th century.

Thanks,

Jim Ruley

[Jim_Ruley]

There are very few existing garments to look at.

Dear Bevin,

I don't think the situation is quite as bleak as that.  The collectability of military items has driven their prices to insane levels ($3k caps and $20k coats!), and many of the "significant" pieces are locked away from prying eyes in museums.  In contrast, period civilian clothing is relatively cheap and common.  You might be surprised by what you can find at local antique shops and flea markets.  The problem is putting a date on what you find; military clothing is governed by regulations, which change at certain intervals and allow soldier's clothing to be dated relatively easily.  Unless civilian clothing is known to have been worn by a specific individual or at a certain occasion, date becomes a matter of opinion and can fall victim to circular reasoning; e.g. "this coat must be pre-1870's because it has hand-sewn buttonholes and buttonholes were hand-sewn before 1870" 

Thanks,

Jim R.

[Carolann Schmitt]

Jim -

Thanks for mentioning Zakim's book. I missed that one when I was doing my cut-and-paste routine. I second your recommendation.

I saw Bob Doyle's book at the CSA Symposium; it is lovely. I need to move that one up on my "to order" list after reading your recommendation.

Anna Worden posted the link to this one on Cornell University's HEARTH site:
The Tailor's Guide: A Complete System of Cutting Every Kind of Garment to Measure, Containing Upwards of Five Hundred Diagrams by Charles Compaing, published in 1856.
http://hearth.library.cornell.edu/h/hearth/browse/title/4399907.html
I've printed it out but haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

Regards,
Carolann

[Jim_Ruley]

Hi Carolann,

I need to print out the book Anna found as well.  It's an early version of DeVere's system (he borrowed or stole from Compaing  ), and the style changes from 1856 to 1866 are very interesting.

Thanks,

Jim R.

[debi casey]

"Classic Tailoring Techniques:  A Construction Guide for Men’s Wear."  Roberto Cabrera.  New York:  Fairchild Publications, 1983.

I have been searching all my local libraries for books on men's fashions and tailoring.  I just picked up 2 with the ILL system on my way home from work.  I have "The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1900" by Norah Waugh and "The Classic Tailoring Techniques".

I figured the price is right and I can study until I can afford to buy.

BTW, I really like Jim's new avatar.

Debi

[Anna Worden Bauersmith]

In contrast, period civilian clothing is relatively cheap and common.  You might be surprised by what you can find at local antique shops and flea markets.  The problem is putting a date on what you find;

Bevin, I can point you to some fairly local places to check out. Some are shops; others are small museum or society collections. One shop in particular has a good flow of incredible garments.

Anna

[bevinmacrae]

Wow! Thanks so much everybody! I promise I won't ask any more questions until I've done some studying on my own now!
Anna,
It would be great to see some shops around here that I an keep an eye on. Perhaps when i visit?

Well, off to the library with my list! And to get ink so I can print off that book!
~bevin

[Anna Worden Bauersmith]

I am working on a list this morning. I can email it to you. I will point a good one out when you come to visit.

Anna

[bevinmacrae]

Thank you so much!
~bevin