Fitting problem with frock coat

[bevinmacrae]

My most recent frock coat victim, er, client, is a body builder and has massive shoulders. I've tried three times to get a draft to fit him, but it's still too tight across the chest for him and the neckline is far too low. The armseye is also too tight, which could be cut, but that only leaves less fabric across the chest. Using Devere's proportional draft got the back to fit perfect, but I had to add about 5 inches to the shoulder area just to get the edges to meet! He expects he will get bigger and I'm getting frustrated, it fits very well everywhere else, but I just must not be cutting the front pieces correctly. Suggestions? Sorry I have no photos, I know those always help, but I was unprepared for the most recent fitting (called in rather suddenly!) and didn't have the camera unpacked. any one else having this problem? I can deal with the portly guys, but this one has me stumped!
Bevin

[Jim_Ruley]

Hi Bevin,

"Massive" shoulders is not a problem DeVere directly addresses, so you will need to be creative.  He will probably need a bigger scye, and since this takes material out of the chest area you may want to start with the next size larger draft.  To accomodate the shoulders, try leaving inlays on both the forepart and back and pinning until you get the fit needed.  The lowering of the neckline might be due to some of the other issues, but you can take care of it by leaving an inlay and adjusting it until you get the fit needed.

Photos would be most helpful when you get a chance.

Hope this helps,

Jim Ruley

[Dean McElroy]

...Hi Bevin..staying with Devere..look at the 1856 manual(plates section) and on plate 7 there is a disproportion figure that is titled "stout shoulders in the upper part"..and the illustrated models have stout shoulders..you could probably start there..and also look at other parts of the clients physique that tie in with the shoulders,ect...you've got the back working but do you know if it correct in relation to the forepiece..also try and find out what size armhole he can actually take..take the inch-tape and circle around with it and then maybe get some type of manila paper and cut out a round hole based on his measurements and see if the arm goes through and have him lower his arm to his side..does the paper tear anywhere?..is the hole too small?..my breast measure is 56'' on the inch tape,but the armhole that has the best chance to work for me is only 20 inches in the raw..yet if you follow Devere that armhole is supposed to be a percentage of the breast measure,in my case around 24''..but according to Salisbury 18 and 20" armscyes are for chest sizes somewhere around 42 and 44''..so if I lost all my excess weight that is the chest size I'd probably be..so to find out what scye I'd most likely be able to wear I came up with the use of a paper cut-out..then you could probably figure out what the forepiece,sidepiece and the back may need to look like
-DM

[J-Waters]

When you look at the average person the neck is so wide and the shoulders ends are so wide, but when you look at a muscle man his neck is wider and the muscles at the ends of the shoulder stick out, so the answer is to crooked the shoulder seam by pushing the neck area out toward the shoulder and extend the shoulder out for the extra muscles out there, this also helps on a chest that juts out. Some people have a sunken chest so the pattern would need to be straighter at the shoulder seam by doing the opposite. So add and inch of inlay at both ends of the shoulder, though I think you will only need it at the shoulder ends. This also changes the roll-line for the lapel which is usually figured at the shoulder line the same amount as the neck was moved over. Also add some across the top of the shoulder so you can get a good line.

Another problem is scye width. As you pointed out taking away from the front of the scye only makes the whole coat smaller around the chest. So the answer is to add width to the front side seam. Most tailors add and inch or two there anyway in case the person gets bigger, so they can let it out. When you do this you need to add some width to the undersleeve that tapers to the elbow or cuff, else wise your sleeve maybe to small.

Many tailors add and inch to the front for fittings because once in awhile that is the best place to make a change. It also give room for the person to dictate style and fashion choices. When making up only the seam allowances are left and the rest is cut away. This should be basted over so the customer can see the front line, but being basted it is easy to change.

This one tailor says to take 4 pins and pin each back half and front half to the shirt. This allows you to open up the shoulder seam and side seams for adjustments. Each of the fronts might need to be move left or right anyway. Pay attention to the roll-line, because you don't want them gapping open (this also helps determine crooking or straighting. If it is too straight it puts pressure on the front shoulder. If reaching forward the shoulder blade has pressure that would mean the underarm seam needs to be let out. Next pin the collar to the coat, because sometimes when putting the collar on it can mess up the fit and you want to take care of that now, while it is easy, than later. It is a good idea to hang the sleeves on at this point too, because they to can mess up the fit (sleeves are about 2 1/2" to over 3" more in circumference than the scye).

These pictures are from the Englishcut.com
The picture show some inlays. Notice the sideseam of the front. he also has some at the neck, but not at the ends of the shoulder on this coat.


This picture shows the collar process. The first one gives lots of room for perfecting the overall look, instead of being stuck with the wrong cut collar. The cut of the collar has a lot to do with the roll of the lapel. How the collar is stretched can make a difference in fit and comfort.

[Dean McElroy]

..forgot to mention,Bevin,you may want to skip the drill with the manila paper and see if your client has a repo jacket(vest)? that fits him(even a modern sport coat) something that's gonna give you some clues for fit...something else I failed to consider is what all goes into a jacket when it is time making up..your client (or myself) would need the correct percentage of the bust measurement for the scye,not just an actual circumference only.. ..additionally Devere has some supplemental measurements you may want to consider..
-DM 

[bevinmacrae]

Based on the most recent draft I did, and looking at it with fresh eyes this morning! I think I need to re=draw the scye and the neckline. He has an erect posture, and I think that may have something to do with the neckline issues. I will also allow more in the side seams and the front. I can always cut down, but I can't add more. Deffinately going to do this in a canvas or something that mimics the real fabric. I did a muslin, and that worked, but it didn't transfer to the wool! Muslin stretches too much! If this fails, he's going to get the canvas draped on him! Which I likely should have done in the first place.....

Thank you for all your prompt and professional replys. I'm not sure I have the vocab to understand it all, but I think I'm getting the gist! Unfortunately, I have Devere's 1866! Guess I need to search for the 1856. I need some of the disproportionate figures for the men I work with!

But other than this problem, the Devere's draft and the workshop with Jim on it at the conference worked darn near perfect and were far easier than the last time I tried to draft!
Bevin

[Dean McElroy]

..Hi Bevin..thanks for reading..I myself am looking more and more at dressmaking for techniques for fitting and the like and based on one of the drafting books I own(Jno. J. Mitchell,Standard Work On Cutting) draping is alluded to in the construction of men's pants(draping fabric over the leg and around the waist)so at an earlier part of the century that was probably a recognised technique of construction for menswear..
-DM

[J-Waters]

When drawing Devere's patterns how much ease and seam allowances is figured when drawing? Or, does the system include these or reference these in the directions? And, are they different between the older book and the newer one?

This one tailor says Devere's systems don't work with todays people. I don't think he knew how to adapt them for todays population. The average person had more muscle and less fat back then, but I would think that would be one major difference. But, even back then there were over weight people. Another major difference is we do have more people today from around the world adding different proportions to the bones structure, which would change the average measurements. Anybody have any thoughts about these?

[Joseph Stevens]

Using Devere's proportional draft got the back to fit perfect, but I had to add about 5 inches to the shoulder area just to get the edges to meet!

Bevin,
If I'm understanding your post correctly, do you mean to say you took the draft for Devere's "proportionate" figure and simply calculated the numbers to make it a larger size?  If that were the case, I'd recommend starting over by using the instructions for the Draft by the Common Inch found in the back of the book.  It probably won't be perfect, but would get you closer than you were before since its all taken from your client's measurements.

~Joseph

[Jim_Ruley]

This one tailor says Devere's systems don't work with todays people. I don't think he knew how to adapt them for todays population. The average person had more muscle and less fat back then, but I would think that would be one major difference. But, even back then there were over weight people. Another major difference is we do have more people today from around the world adding different proportions to the bones structure, which would change the average measurements. Anybody have any thoughts about these?

That sounds like Robert Doyle in "The Art of the Tailor".  And yet in the costume chapter he starts with a modern suit block and turns it into a Renaissance doublet.  Any pattern draft or block pattern is just a starting point, which with proper manipulation can be turned into whatever you need.  DeVere's "proportionate" model does not well represent the AVERAGE person today; however, there is no reason not to use DeVere's for those people who DO resemble the model.  What Doyle is really saying is that DeVere's would not be a good choice as the basis for a clothing LINE.  However, for custom period clothing work it's better than a modern block -- you already have the correct number of seams and they're in the right places.

When drawing Devere's patterns how much ease and seam allowances is figured when drawing? Or, does the system include these or reference these in the directions? And, are they different between the older book and the newer one?

For the basic coat draft (frock, dress, and other similar coats) DeVere's draft allows some ease in the chest.  The waist is "to measure" in the 1866 book and a little tighter in the 1856 version. 

For seam allowance, the 1856 book calls for 1/4 inch to be added to lengths, but the stretch of the cloth is supposed to even out the widths, for woolen materials.  There is a statement in the 1866 book that implies that seam allowance is included in the drafts; amount not specified.  However, experience shows that seam allowance must be added to avoid an over-tight fit if the garment is made to measure.  Practically speaking, seams can always be tightened when fitting; but if cut too narrow you've just made junk out of your cloth  .

If I'm understanding your post correctly, do you mean to say you took the draft for Devere's "proportionate" figure and simply calculated the numbers to make it a larger size?  If that were the case, I'd recommend starting over by using the instructions for the Draft by the Common Inch found in the back of the book.  It probably won't be perfect, but would get you closer than you were before since its all taken from your client's measurements.

This will help with fitting the waist, getting the "balance" right and placing the bottom of the scye; and is the method I use routinely.  However, the Common Inch draft does not include the supplementary measures (back stretch, shoulder slope, etc) that DeVere defines under "Measurement".  Taking and applying these may help, but DeVere's draft is designed to render a "natural" shoulder and I think some T&E will be required to accomodate this client's figure.

Thanks,

Jim R.

[J-Waters]

Robert Doyle in "The Art of the Tailor".  Yep, been reading his book.

Google books also has some tailor gazettes from the 1870s that is rather interesting. Mostly of the current time (1865-1872, but some history is in them, too. Most is about cutting and fittings with a little about sewing. These are from West End of London. So far I haven't seen anytbing in them about DeVere. But he must be in there somewhere. I wonder how tailors here in the US proceeded into the future. Did they have their own monthly publications to advance the art around the 1860s? It would be nice to read how they pursued to make better clothes, and what they thought of what the Europeans were doing. With all the immigrant tailors moving in it must have been quiet a smorgasbord of tailoring methods and ideas.

[Dean McElroy]

...if anyone wants an idea of Devere's status in the 1880's google in Thomas Hiram Holding. Holding was a cutter who eventually became a "vendor" of tailor/cutter supplies and tuition. If you look at the adds of the period you'll find that Devere himself is Holding's boss and also a retailer of tailoring goods. Holding himself has a system which is partially described within these google texts.

You'll note that in the introduction he describes having learned his craft from a very prominent cutter of the period. After 20 yrs. of being under the pressure of being a cutter he came up with his own system after admitting that the time consuming system he learned as an apprentice wasn't practical by the 1880's,even though if one were to continue its use beutiful garments could be made(probably Minister's). He states the less overall line drawing done the quicker the pattern could be gotten up.I guess RTW had progressed to a point(1880's) that it was driving "flat pattern" drafting out of business.

It appears also that Devere and Holding and others were selling paper patterns as well ,by this time,as well as the spikey paper tracing wheels. Interestingly enough,in one of the 1920's Butterick clothing construction guides I purchased off E-bay..its states that a half century earlier paper patterns  were a nightmare to use..with just lines drawn on the paper with no instructions as to how to put the pattern together or to style it..and further explaining that paper patterns had progressed further up to the 20's to where one could put them together and with the aid of the book create a decent garment..so there you have it..the PI and Homespun pattern series that we use today are just reencarnations of the early paper patterns from the 1880's..we probably should not complain..after all it is a form of reenacting and possibly immersionist as well as we are experiencing the same difficulties as those who came before us..we should be rejoicing in it I believe..as it is naked 19th century robber baron capitalism that we are experiencing.."I ain't walking these patterns if I can get away with it" ;)I guess back then you'd have ask around to find out what was what...

[bevinmacrae]

I drafted using the proportionate scale but making allowances for things that weren't proportional. So it was like drafting using the bigger ruler, but doublechecking to his common inch measurements and changing what needed to be changed. On paper, things worked. But there's no measurement for the shoulders in Deveres that could compensate for the line-backer shoulders of my client. Even the angle at which they come out of his neck is different! Going to rip apart the garment today, take out that offending front piece and replace it with a piece of canvas. Then set it aside until we both have time to really get down to dealing with it, like a good four hours AT MY WORKPLACE, not running out to meet him at his job when I have no things handy to fix stuff. He doens't seem to be wanting the coat for quite a while, so I'm going to take advantage of that, let him "grow" his muscles even more before the next fitting, and just take it easy and not stress over it for now! I'm learning the best system for fitting clients is when they visit me.
Bevin

[Nicole Hansard]

Ms. MacRae, How did you finally get the shoulders to work? 

Do any of you have suggestions on what to do with a size 48 pattern to make it a size 52 in the shoulders (on a sack coat)?  I probably should just be telling the gentleman this is over my head. . .but I hate to admit defeat before I try.   

[J-Waters]

Grading a pattern

Horizontal is 1/4" in front and 1/8" at the side, plus, at the side of the back is 1/8", this = 1/2" for one half side of coat or half the body.

At the front pitch, which is usually 3/4"-1" above the breast line (bottom of the armhole) draw a line through the point of the lapel and add an 1/8"; And draw line through the neck-shoulder point and add 1/8"; And extend the end of the shoulder 1/8". At the bottom front draw a steep diagonal line and add 1/8"; At the bottom side of both front and back draw a less steep diagonal line and add 1/8"; then at bottom back add 1/8" down.

For top of back draw a line from top of side seam to center back (level) And from that point draw two lines through end of shoulder and another line through neck point and add 1/8" to both; top of center back at neck add 1/8".

Sleeve at cuff add 1/16" for width; Where crown and side seam meet add 1/8" on the line (draw) from front pitch through where it is to be added; undersleeve, again, draw line through top of side seams and add 1/8".

Collar add 1/4" to front and make 1/8" wider.

You can only go up about 4 sizes before it gets out of hand and ends up being something noticeably different, so you can add to these measurements up to 4 times. Since you are doing a custom coat you are probably moving the waist and bottom edge, so adding an 1/8" really does not have a purpose. The neck and shoulder adjustments will help to keep some likeness, but the fitting deterimes where they really go. I don't know if you like changing the armhole depth or not, but if you do then the sleeve needs to be adjusted there to. When you put the front and back pieces of the coat pattern together at the shoulder seam (seam line on seam line) then take the top sleeve and the pitch points of both body and sleeve should be exact (Length), if not adjust the sleeve. The crown of sleeve can be adjusted at the fitting if you left extra Length up there or make a dummy sleeve.

To make a shoulder larger

Back shoulder end add 1/2"

On front add 1/4" at lapel point (wider); move top of roll line 1/4" toward lapel; move neck-shoulder point 1/4" toward neck; add 1/4" up and out at shoulder ends; either hollow out the front of armhole or add to the side seam width 1/4".

Wide shoulders

Back neck-shoulder point take off 1/2"; Shoulder end take off 3/4" and extend out a bit wider.

Front neck-shoulder point add 1/2"; Shoulder end add 3/4" and extend out a bit wider.

Take off 3/8" off of sleeve crown.

Thread marking

These directions of wide shoulders and large shoulders may help or be a hindrance. They show approximately where it may be wise to add cloth for a fitting. Tailors usually add 3/4" across the front shoulder and 1/2", or more, at the both ends of the shoulder. Side seams are usually an inch or two (in case weight is gained). Front includes and inch; this is good because the lapel edge could be better with a different shape, and if the shoulder gets wider at the neck the roll line at top needs to be moved same amount and then the front edged of lapel needs to be moved out same amount towards the top. These add on's allow creativity and adjustments for fittings, and the excess is cut off later (except side seam). Thread marking at edge of pattern on cloth shows you how much changes you made and where and how to adjust that pattern for that customer, and when you look over a new customer of similar build you have and idea of the changes to make.

[Nicole Hansard]

Thank you for taking the time to post all that information, Mr. Waters.

[Jim_Ruley]

Do any of you have suggestions on what to do with a size 48 pattern to make it a size 52 in the shoulders (on a sack coat)?  I probably should just be telling the gentleman this is over my head. . .but I hate to admit defeat before I try.   

Hi Nicole,

What is his actual chest size?  Is the coat too small in the chest, or is the problem confined to the shoulders?

If the chest is too small, you need to scale up the whole pattern to his actual size, either using graduated measures or DeVere's formulas.

If you just need to widen the back, you need a measure of his actual back width.  Compare that to the width of the pattern and extend the width at the shoulders, smoothly curving the lines into the neck and side body seams.  You'll also need to lengthen the shoulder piece on the forepart to match.  Look at the plate under "Drafting by the Common Inch" in DeVere's book (near page 128) and "make LP the same as HK" as shown.

Hope this helps; please send me a PM if it's unclear.

Thanks,

Jim R.

[Dean McElroy]

..here is what I did with my Period Impressions civilian vest pattern size 50 to make it around a size 56 with some ease for lining and belly...all I needed initially was the front and back pieces...added extra material at the centre back(make wider)and at the sides(make wider) and lengthened the front for the belly. Because everything is wider,all the dart placements you may want and pocketing may need to be rescaled for the new size. I used a heavy manila syle paper,tansferring the pattern for the cutting  taping and fitting. If you look at the primary source materials published by RL Shep,you'll see that these works talk of this technique for adding material to vests and possibly coating as well. For instance,I found that once I made the vest wider,I had to lengthen the front because making the vest wider doesn't make it longer for a belly,in may case..but that's seems to be the case with corpulent fitting,it varies and that is why most of the Londan firms charge extra for extra small or corpulent figures.

If you are going to flat draft a vest pattern(or anything else) then you will be cutting your pieces from the measurements taken and when fitting one would work with the centre back and side seams along with any darting. If you want to flat draft a garment my graduated inch is 1.56 or 1.66 to draft for a  size 56" chest or thereabouts. This figure is an approximation as the Devere and Minister  proportionate bust measure are slightly different, 37.5" and 36" IICRC..so your graduated inch will be different depending on the sysytem used. It seems that by today's standard a 36-38 bust is on the small side..if one looks at the used uniform adverts on the Authentic Camapaigner site most clothing sizes start at 40" chest and tops out at around 48" with some 50" sizing here and there.It also seems that if there is any 37"or 38" sizing it belongs to the teenagers involved with reenacting..42" chest seems to belong to the 30 and 40 age group. So do we draft patterns from directly from the inch tape or utilise the graduated inch today..Thomas Hiram Holding recommends that working men's jackets be drafted one size up(fron 38 to 39 inches) as this class of people can't understand or appreciate a close fit...but I don't see how that opinion would hold up in the America of the 1890's as a close fit is everything and US Army regulations specified the same..and looking at period photographs even the big guys strove for the close fit...-DM

[Maggie Koenig]

Nichole,
   There are several books available that deal with grading up patterns the same way they do in the fashion industry.  A quick search at the library and possibly and IIL later should get you the information you need. 

[Nicole Hansard]

What is his actual chest size?  Is the coat too small in the chest, or is the problem confined to the shoulders? .

He said a 45, so it seems the problem is just in the shoulders.

Hope this helps; please send me a PM if it's unclear.

Helpful as usual.  I’m not sure I grasp it 100%, but I won’t bother you right now since it seems I might have scared the gentleman away by admitting my lack of skill in such alterations.  Oh, well.  “Honesty is the best policy.”