Documentation of Hem Lengths and Ages

[BarbaraSmith]

Oh my... So, poor Nona has become the object of controversy at Fort Nisqually. There is a faction there complaining that her skirts are too short, and another faction attempting to stick up for her age-appropriate hem length. Since my recent conversion, I'm in the latter camp. 

I've been asked to produce documentation that a shorter hem would have been worn by a girl over the age of 12 who is yet unmarriageable.

Is there such a thing? Is the unmarriageable statement made anywhere?

I don't own any books on children's clothing. And Nona doesn't either. She depends on the library and internet research. If you could point me specifically to a book or citation, I could go request that interlibrary loan.

Many thanks for your assistance!
Auntie B in Tacoma

[Chessa_Swing]

Though I do not know the exact age of the people in these pictures, I hope it still helps!






I'm not sure if this will help at all but they sure are pretty dresses!!

I'm sorry poor Nona has to deal with this!!!

P.S. Images are from The Gracefull Lady. 

[BarbaraSmith]

Thank you Chessa!!!!
B.

[Chessa_Swing]

No problem!

I'm sure some of the other people like Mrs. Clark will have some better proof 

[Nona Nelson]

Thanks Auntie B for starting this new topic for me!
Those pictures that Chessa posted were some of the few that I showed one of the ladies from the fort. Nancy seems really intrested in learning about the correct lengths for girls.

[Chessa_Swing]

Thats good!!
I've been drooling over the striped dress since I started reenacting, but I wasn't able to find any fabric cheap enough before I was told "No more fabric till you get all your dresses done!!"

[Elizabeth]

The best evidences are simply images: hundreds and hundreds of images of actual girls in their teens wearing "shorter than adult" length skirts.  There's a wide range of lengths for any given age, so there's no hard and fast rule, but history of photography books can often be a good source of images.  Original fashion engravings with their text will often indicate the "slightly shorter" skirts of "young ladies at home", etc.

It's one of those things where I can't point you to one authoritative resource.  I've not found any specific quote from mid-century that lays it all (though there's a post-war diagram from Harper's that has lengths dictated by age.)  I just keep noting hems and age ranges in photographs, and over the last 10 years or so, have formed a working theory on skirt lengths based on those images, from every book, photograph, or magazine I can get my hands on.

[BarbaraSmith]

And that's good enough for ME! 

"Elizabeth Said It. I Believe It. That Settle's It." 

I'm just teasing! But seriously, the concept that you've done way more research into the area of children's wear than I have leads me to feel very positive about your opinions.

Many thanks!
Barbara

[Nona Nelson]

And that's good enough for ME! 

"Elizabeth Said It. I Believe It. That Settle's It." 

I'm just teasing! But seriously, the concept that you've done way more research into the area of children's wear than I have leads me to feel very positive about your opinions.

Many thanks!
Barbara

I'll have to agree with Auntie B.
Thanks Elizabeth! I think you've said before that there wasn't really a set age or rule for hems.
Right now I am suring CDVs on differnt web sites and I might print the cool ones out. 

[Anna Worden Bauersmith]

A few years back we had a similar dispute locally. It really did turn into a messy, nasty dispute. Do avoid that. I had files full of images and quotes all set up to give the group of young teens at a workshop. Long story short, politics, disagreements, nasty things said, more politics. I got irked and trashed everything. All I have left in an email is a short list of images you may or may not have.
http://www.victorianmillinery.com/cdv/images/cdv%20swisswaist_jpg_jpg_jpg.jpg
http://www.victorianmillinery.com/cdv/images/cdv019_jpg.jpg
http://www.victorianmillinery.com/cdv/pages/cdvofdoggirl_jpg.htm
http://www.victorianmillinery.com/cdv/images/cdv029_jpg.jpg
http://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/16/57/11-01.jpg
http://cache.tias.com/stores/war/pictures/cdv4241a.jpg
http://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/04/72/64-01.jpg
http://www.phsc.ca/janice/girl_with_albumsm.jpg
http://www.acay.com.au/~gsm/Champion/Ch17-18.JPG
http://be-hold.com/content/Images/images29/tgirls.jpg

I made up a nice info packet for the girls. I didn't even save the digital files for that.

Anna

[BarbaraSmith]

Well, that's disenheartening. 

Nona, are you strong enough for a battle of wills? I'll definitely ride champion for you, but maybe you'd best gird your loins for nasty comments.

I have to say, you're the first teenager at Nisqually who'se done this. It's pretty much accepted that by the time you WANT a long dress, you can have one.

But, I think everyone needs to grow and change. And if you can help me construct a packet for teen girls, I'll do the formatting and typing and make it all pretty. Maybe we can have a teen girl slide show some day?

Thank you all for your assistance and rallying to Nona's cause!!!!

Hugs,
B.

[Anna G.]

I absolutely love Nona's shorter dresses! They're especially great when everyone's hems are muddy in the rain, but Nona's aren't! I realy think teenage styles are so underrepresented at the Fort.

True Story: One of my friends (another AI) at the Fort (Nona knows who I'm talking about  ) wanted to go upper class for Burns Dinner, the volunteer appreciation dinner. Anyway, she went into the clothing closet to try on dresses, and showed them to me, and the dresses all looked too old for her age. They looked like they would fit a much older woman, but we really don't have teenage clothes, and I doubt she wanted to sew a dress in less than 1 week.

Anyway, Nona has actually inspired me to make a dress with a shorter hem and short sleeves for the summer. Not only to stay much cooler (I think I'll sew a sheer dress next summer) but to actually look like a teenager, and dress age-appropriate.

Okay, done blabbing . . .
-Anna

[Elizabeth]

Barb, I can likely contribute some digital images to the cause.  

Thing is, those who are willing to be vitriolic will continue to be so, even if you show them 42 thousand images of young women in "shorter than adult" youthful skirts.  They'll point to six images of young women in adult length skirts, and say, "Well, you didn't take THESE six into account, and they prove it's not a rule!"

My advice: agree with them.  Agree that there is NO one overriding rule from the period on teenage girl's skirt lengths.  There never will be one.  It's not been codified in the Constitution.  Holy Scripture does not speak to it.  Anthems have not been written on the theme.  Newspaper editorialists of the day did not pontificate over the length of a fifteen-year-old girl's skirts.  Poets have not waxed rhapsodic.  We will never have evidence from every single dress of every single teenage girl from the era.  It will never be "conclusive." 

(Not much about period clothing every IS.  For those wanting precision, go into mathematics, not history.)

However, there is likewise no overwhelming evidence that girls in the mid-century did NOT wear youthful dresses--and a good deal of pictorial evidence that many girls DID wear youthful dresses.  There are many advantages for the young lady who wears youthful styles, many of which we've covered in other discussions. (The "Dry Hems in the Temperate Rain Forest" argument is a strong one!  But then, the adult women should be hemming a bit shorter, too, if they're trailing in the mud...  That's a whole 'nother kettle of eels, though.)

I can't imagine the topic of Nona's Hems taking precedence over actual history.  Those who want to make it a Supreme Court issue will try to do so, regardless of the documentation.  Nona (and other young ladies) will have to make up their minds, to open their minds, and be willing to look at evidence both for and against youthful skirt lengths, and then make their own decision regarding what they will wear, taking into consideration all the pros and cons, as well as the advice from the adults into whose care they are entrusted.

My own thought on it (and it just my thought, not Gospel, and no one will be smacked with the Snood of Reproachment if they want a different thought! ) is that the advantages of youthful dressing (safety, fashion, and history) outweigh the disadvantages (being taken for a teenager). 

One arguement often raised is "no one will take a teenager seriously--they need to look like a grown up in order to communicate the interpretive message." 

To that, I say, "Foo.  Foo and Double Foo."  A well-spoken, pleasant teen can convey any interpretive message she chooses, regardless of her skirt length.  If visitors have questions, it's not difficult for her to say, "I'm still a very young lady.  In a year or two, when my parents decide I am ready for all the cares of the adult world, I'll let my skirts down to womanly lengths, but for now, I'm enjoying my girlhood."

So, don't decide to follow something just because I said it.  I'm flattered if anyone takes my opinion into consideration, but I hope everyone would feel comfortable bringing new or contradictory information to my attention, as I am a fellow student, and very willing to see more information, even if it may refine or change my working thoughts on various topics.

My goodness... I can tell I've been watching BBC costume dramas this afternoon while working.  It always hits me in the word processor first.

[Chessa_Swing]

The one thing I have noticed, is that the girls who were wearing their hems longer are in ballgowns, waist,skirt and blouse combos, stuff like that.  For everyday dresses, they're usually shorter.  This isn't the rule or anything but just something I've noticed.

[Nona Nelson]

thank you to all for your input! I love to hear what everyone has to say about skirt lengths!
Thanks for the CDV's! And if anyone else has any of teen girls around, I would love to see them so Auntie B and I can make up a packet to show others. I've also have been looking at the girls that are wearing longer lengthed skirts usally, its like what Chessa just siad, the girls wearing those long lengths, their dresses seem to be more fancier silk dresses, "ballgowns", waist, skirt and blouse combos, not like the dresses that are made out of cottons or wools that are more "everyday" type dresses.
I'll be happy if I can only just convence atlest one person that shorter skirts are better, excpieally if she is one of them girls like the one in the red dress that was/is still too long.

[Catherine Kelly]

I think the question of skirt length and/or dress style VS age may be similar to today,  regarding  how a mother determines what is appropriate dress for her daughter...   

some parents allow thier daughters to dress in older looking  clothes as soon as they begin to mature..  and to the extreme some even younger  (to look like a minature adult)... and some keep their daughters dressed younger far later gradually letting them wear clothes appropriate to their age.   

I had to walk a fine line between letting her dress like her friends and not to old as she was the youngest in her class.  I didn't allow my daughter to dress too reveling/ mature (thinking modern dress), until she was out of school and of legal age...  and even then  I cautioned her...  until she was 20...    My DD  started her senior year at 16 and graduated at 17...so there really was a fine line to deal with and ther were a few discussions between us...   but usually a good compermise.   

her senior year one woman asked me how I got my daughter to dress so nicely...( like a young lady with a nice skirt length and a cute top)... and not showing too much or looking like the other kids in the room.... I said I buy her clothes.. so she has no choice...LOL..    but we had similar taste and when fashion ruled the day.. we  always were able to find a happy medium so both of us were happy...LOL

and it has rubbed off.. at 20 and now just 21...she looks at young kids today dressed in things that belong on an adult and wonders what the parents are thinking...    LOL 

as for the 180s I think it may have been similar...

my rule for my Daughter in reenacting was, when she stopped running around like a kid she could dress as an adult... i had little to fear as an ADHD kid..LOL    and at about 17 going on 18 she was ready for longer skirts and took on the role as an adult...    and she was starting to date the young men (same age in our group)  and so she settled into a more mature roll...

anyway I suspect it was similar in the 1860s... and why  you see the varients of age.      kind of like the little boys curles and first hair cuts...     some moms like to keep therir little ones little as long as possible other are ready to move along.

Catherine

[BarbaraSmith]

Thank you so much ladies, for your knowledge, your support, and of course your images! 

Elizabeth, I know it's so lame to just rely on you to do all my research for me, but in my defense, you say it so much better than I ever could!  Your arguments are so very reasonable, rational, and CIVIL. Vs. my spluttering and swearing like a sailor and insisting "BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY!" 

All input welcome. I think Nona and I will put it together in a little packet she can share at her next AI meeting and we can also store here in the archives for other's use.

AND, I do appreciate the modern comparisons, as well. Who knew a punk rocker ilke me would grow up to be such a prude?  I have to admit to being shocked that Chessa was wearing makeup already...  I remember fighting with my parents about makeup, and sneaking out to spend my lunch money on a secret pair of heels that I kept at school in my locker.  I AM OLD! 

All of you parents trying to keep your daughters from dressing like "working girls" have my sincere appreciation. I am daily horrified by the students that walk past my office window.... 

Cheers,
B.

[Catherine Kelly]

LOL..  I didn't sneak heals...  but I spent mine on my first lipstick and cover up...   LOL  then the lightest eye shadow I could find.. and just a touch of mascara..   then washed my face before anyone got home... LOL

     and honey your not really old.. I have about 10 years on you...     

Catherine 
AKA..  "Mom Kelly"     

and I mean every one in our group calls me mom.. young and old...   LOL

[BarbaraSmith]

Hey, it's better than "Ma Kelly". 

And I dubbed myself "Auntie" when I acquired my first nieces and nephews. I think I was born to be Miss Haversham and be the evil old maid aunt... 

LOL,
B.

[Elizabeth]

Parents do seem to play a large role in that transition, in the 1800s.  If a girl is "out in the world" and on her own, she'll be making that transition earlier than if she's living at home under parental authority.

Another reason for the range in images is due to growth: if a picture is taken at the very beginning of a garment's useful life, it may well be a bit large, with a slightly longer hem.  If it's taken after a good growth spurt, it may be "too short" compared to the visual age of the person.  If we catch her right in the middle, she'll look "just right" to fit inside a "rule of reenacting"--and that may make the before and after growth images look like "exceptions to the rule" rather than perfectly normal variations on the rule.

Also, we have to factor in that whole visual age issue.  Here's what makes it tricky: girls hit maturity in a different age range then, than now.  Some will hit their maturity at similar ages, of course--those curves do overlap somewhat, and specific individuals may mature earlier or later, regardless of what the "averages" and "curves" predict.  But if you have a girl just starting into puberty at age 14 in 1855, she's going to LOOK to be about the same age as a girl just starting into puberty today--and the modern girl might be 11, instead of 14.  So, our "mother's eyes" get a workout with mid-century teenage girl images... are they as young as their modern counterparts, or are they a bit older but just at the same stages of physical development?  With unidentified images, we can only give a good guess and a range of potential ages.

Again--lots of factors, no one overriding rule, but LOTS of options for young women in their 14-20 year ages.

Barb, here's a definition for you:  TACT: the art of being able to tell someone to go to Hades, so pleasantly that they'll look forward to the trip.