Wonderful Coat

[billclark]

I came across this coat on the same Danish web site mentioned in another thread.  I was wondering what span of time this coat would be acceptable for?  I mostly reenact the Civil War.  The dates given on the coat are confusing(as the text is in Danish) at one point it says 1840 at another 1850.  Im just wondering if the style or the colors are acceptable for the early war years?






I really like the rust piping on the blue.

Bill

[Amy D.]

Here is a poorly done, partial translation courtesy of online translation software:

From 1840'erne were frock or coat, vest, fetch trousers, shirt and collar bone by halstørklæde or demands fixed the ingredient to a crew påklædning. It has no changed themselves seminal the paper. Mandsdragten is konservativ and are you vidt extent settled construct after they equal principles. The suit to discretion snit and color is settled grundstammen to herregarderoben. Datidens coat were dark, fx quality, blue, brown, green, grey or boards. As distinct from the frock went careless whole the access round. It was the chip just over, sat suave to taljesømmen ahead and generating sidefolder or læg on the back. The coat could være either a- or toradet. In the middle of 1800- the number were that fashion that make use of the pattern and structuring body to herrebukser, that fx kippervævet, sildebensmønstret, checked and contest. In winter went uldne body preferred, in Summer were that easier the quality that listen and bomuld. The displayed blue dobbeltradede mandsfrakke by narrow, checked trousers is from 1850'erne.

[billclark]

I am basically just wondering whether or not I can make a coat of this color with the rust piping, and have it be a piece which would not be inappropriately behind fashion for the 1860's. 

Thanks,
Bill

[bevinmacrae]

Does the text seem to indicate the coat is linen? It kind of looks like linen to me-great color! I also like the piping alot! As for the shae of it for the war, it fits what I think is right. But perhaps Mr. Ruley will chime in.
Bevin

[billclark]

My fingers are crossed, can you see that with all of my browns and greens?  I am deffinatly going to try to reproduce this coat I am sold.  Would the piping be silk, wool, linen? 

Bill

[Jessamyn]

I don't know what the piping is, but it's a very nice touch that the buttonholes are either welted in the same material or sewn with a perfectly matching buttonhole twist.

[Jim_Ruley]

Well,

I'm guessing that "dobbeltradede mandsfrakke" means "double-breasted frock coat", but I can't make out anything that gives the fabric composition.  I'm guessing wool with silk soutache piping.

Has anyone seen the actual coat, or just these photos?  Photo color reproduction can be way off.  Plus, I wonder if the piping was originally rust colored, or has faded?  I think black trimming is a far more likely choice than brown or red, but could be wrong.

Are any other photos available?  The coat appears to have vented cuffs and -- dare I say it -- side pockets!

Thanks,

Jim R.

[Phil Graf]

I'd say it's closer to 1850 than 1840, but would still be fairly dated by the Civil War.  Yes, side pockets were dam near universal on early coats.  What website is that from?  I must've missed that thread.

[Jessamyn]

You missed that thread because it was over in Ladies' Dresses:

http://thesewingacademy.org/index.php?topic=1685.0

[billclark]

There were no other photos available unfortunatly, though there was a pattern posted,  which I saved and I will try and post it later tonight.  What about a date?  Are we thinking early 50's?  and would the color be unheard of.  I have not seen many mens fashion plates, or origninals for that matter to compare colors.

Thanks,
Bill

[Jim_Ruley]

Visiting the site and looking at the pattern, it appears the coat is made of "silkecrepe".  There was another reference to "silke" but I don't know if it was the lining or the trim.  The pattern clearly shows a separately cut skirt, side pockets, a working vented cuff, but surprisingly no seam under the arm.  It is unclear whether the pattern is an exact draping or an approximation so I would be suspicious about using it directly.  However, the lines remind me very much of the online 1856 DeVere's -- which would allow easy adjustment for size and proportions.

IMO this coat is a bit dated for the 1860's.  The tight fitting sleeves and working cuffs point to a late 40's - early 50's date.  Also, the side pockets (and lack of tail pockets) are uncommon on American coats of the 1860's.

Thanks,

Jim R.

[Ian McWherter]

With only the images to go from (and the fact that I don't speak Dutch) I would say that this coat is made from typical wool broadcloth. The drape of the garment reflects a heavier material than linen or cotton.

I agree with Jim, the piping, or cord, has probably faded. The thread used to sew the buttonholes matches the color of the trim, it is highly unlikely that the buttonholes would have been sewn with rust colored thread.

With respect to dating of the garment, I would place the date of this garment right around circa 1840, plus or minus a couple years. The coat, according to the pattern which accompanies it, lacks a side seam a feature which was added to men's frock coats sometime in the late 1830s. As with any fashion it takes a little while before these sort of "improvements" become universal. The fact that the coat also has side flap pockets is another indicator of its earlier circa. Frock coats of the 1830s often are illustrated in the fashion plates with side pockets, but as the 1840s wears on these pockets begin to disappear so by 1850 they are uncommon. They are by no means wrong for an 1850s impression as images and fashion plates still sometimes depict these on mid-century frocks. Early 1840s daguerreotypes depict gentlemen wearing coats that have a very similar collar and lapel treatment. It seems that this style of collar and lapel roll was popular in the late 1830s early 1840s:

John Quincy Adams 1843


Gentleman early 1840s


The overall "look" and fit of this frock coat does not match any of the late 1840s early 1850s frock coats I've examined at all, it screams an earlier provenance.

[Phil Graf]

My only reason for giving it a later date is the relatively small size of the collar.  Ian, I haven't studied the 1840's as much as you have, so you're probably closer on this than I am.  From my limited experience looking at coats, the very tall collars of the 1820's had calmed down substantially by the 1840's, but were still quite tall (or wide).  The collar on this coat is downright tame. 

You are right that the waist pockets place it earlier than the 1850's.  I don't in any way disagree with you there.  It's hard to put a date on the side seam.  There are still four-piece body jackets made during the ACW.  Sometimes, what looks like a side seam is actually just a dart. 

What really upsets me is that the .pdf's on that site don't work for me at all.  I can see the tiny preview, but can't download the whole thing. 

[Ian McWherter]

Well, the horse collars of the 1820s had died down quite a bit by the early 1830s. By mid decade the stand and the fall of collars were about equal. 1830s or 1840s collars and revers aren't always so large. Here's a good example of an 1830s linen tail coat in a friend's private collection:

[billclark]

Thanks for all the information.  I think this coat is too early for my use, but it is a great peice. 

Bill

[Jim_Ruley]

Here's a good example of an 1830s linen tail coat in a friend's private collection:

Hi Ian,

Wonderful piece your friend has there.  Just out of curiosity, what dates it to the 1830's?  I'm not disputing the date, just asking.

Thanks,

Jim R.

[Ian McWherter]

Hi Ian,

Wonderful piece your friend has there.  Just out of curiosity, what dates it to the 1830's?  I'm not disputing the date, just asking.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Well, the overall appearance of the coat right away jumps out as 1830s to me, but here are the clues that I'm looking at: The fullness of the sleeve cap gathered into the armscye and the tightness of the sleeve from the elbow down to the cuff, the hip flap pockets (you can't see them in the photo), the positioning of the buttons on the breast, the shape of the front edge of the breast, the lack of a side seam under the arm, the shape of the tails, and the shape of the back pieces are all critical to dating this piece squarely in the 1830s.

I also have the credibility of the garments owner to back my assertion, he is far more knowledgeable than me in dating textiles.

[Dean McElroy]

...the cut of the coats look like an ideal coat if one has sloping shoulders and can handle a tight armscye,you'll never have to worry about it riding up in back when you sit down. Additionally,it appears as if the roll of the collars will enhance the appearance of the heavy craveats from the time period. The "Wonderful coat" may be 1840's and cut to enhance the build an appearance of the original owner....
-Dean McElroy

[jacobite8749]

I have a number of books in Danish on the wars with Prussia over Schleswig Holstein and the German unification in 1864. Photographs show Danish troops in what, even in European styles, may appear dated for the period. Most show soldiers wearing fall fronted trousers still. In paintings, this coat and trousers, do appear as 1850's. Whilst i would suggest it was a great impression for a Danish re-enactor of the 50's and perhaps early 60's. Not sure it would do for America, or even Britain at that time. A good really beat up set would work though.

John Hopper

[Jim_Ruley]

I have been unable to locate a Danish speaker for translation.  However, Karin Boehleke (who speaks Norwegian) and a friend of hers who speaks Swedish, were kind enough to puzzle it out.  Karin says it's not perfect, but it's certainly clearer than the machine translation!  As you can see it's some general notes on men's fashion coupled with a description of the items:

A plain cut and a perfect fit

As of the 1840s, tail or frock coats, vests, and full-length trousers, shirts and collars, neckerchiefs or cravats were fixed components of a man’s wardrobe.  The fundamental aspect had not changed.  Men’s clothing is conservative and generally constructed along the same principles.  The suit in a discreet cut and colour is the stable core in the male wardrobe.  Daytime frock coats were dark, for example black, blue, brown, green, grey or Bordeaux [burgundy].  In the cutting of a frock, the skirt went the entire way around.  There was the cut [I’m not sure], and sat smooth at the front waist seam and forming side pleats or back pleats.  The frock could be single or double-breasted.  In the mid-1800s, it was fashionable to use patterned and structured fabric for men’s trousers, such as for example, twilled weave, herringbone, checks, and stripes.  In the winter, wool fabrics were preferred; in summer it was lighter qualities such as flax or cotton.  The blue double-breasted man’s frock coat and narrow checked trousers shown here are from the 1850s.

Clothing description:

Double-breasted frock coat.  The front pieces are cut with a waist seam and the tails are sewn together.  Two side pockets with flaps, 1 breast pocket in the left side.  Cuff openings have slits with two small buttons and buttonholes.  Small fold-down collar.  Frock coat can button all the way to the throat.  The trousers are made from a herringbone weave checked wool.  Seams in the side middle front and back.  Opening on the side seam.  Three-cornered gusset over the lower back underlining and the back of the side seam along the opening.  On the side of each front a strap is sewn, it fastened with a metal buckle of the newer type.  Two buttons in the front and two and the back for the suspenders.  The legs are slit 20 cm and fasten with 4 mother-of-pearl buttons.  Black elastic footstraps (possibly added later).  Faced with a linen fabric.

Frock coat:  silk crepe

Trousers:  brown and white. 
Side seam length:  98 cm
Back piece width:  56.5 cm
Front piece width:  51 cm
Trouser leg, width below:  35.5 cm

I wish there were more photos of the pants -- they seem to have some very unconventional details!

Thanks,

Jim R.