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Jim_Ruley
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2015, 08:36:00 PM »

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Going through his six kind of misfits as listed on pages 117-121, and in plate 39, none seem to deal with when the shoulder piece is simply too wide.

DeVere does show the application of measure #13 ("back stretch") to the coat draft in Fig. 1, Plate 6.  For a vest the width of back is pretty arbitrary, but it should not be so wide as to interfere with the fit of the coat.  If you are satisfied with the height of the back neck and depth of scye, you may just want to release the shoulder seams, smooth the fronts into place over the backs and let the vest lie on your shoulders where it wants to.  Not very systematic but if you depart significantly from "proportionate" it may be the easiest course to follow.
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K Franklin
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2015, 10:55:33 AM »

So first are pictures of the initial draft:





Now here are pictures of a new draft with the calculated bust, much improved! Thank you.






Do you think I should relieve a little around the neck and then relieve the armscye to allow freedom of movement for the shoulder?
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K Franklin
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2015, 01:38:15 PM »

I just realized the pictures didn't come across the best. Here is a link to my blog where they can be enlarged.

http://tipsytablemonkey.blogspot.com/2015/10/a-vest-in-3-systems-devere-1866-first.html
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Jim_Ruley
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2015, 02:28:24 PM »

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Do you think I should relieve a little around the neck...

What style of vest are you making?  It looks like a clerical or military collar would fit well, with a small seam taken from the existing neck line.  If you want a different style, look at Plates 15 and 16 for drafting instructions.

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...and then relieve the armscye to allow freedom of movement for the shoulder?

Once you take a seam out of the scye I think the shoulder would be free enough; it's already got extra room behind due to the flat one-piece back.  However, the shoulder strap is wider than you need and might get into the scye of the coat at the top.  So, you could take off maybe an inch of width at the shoulder seam and just taper that down evenly to the bottom of the scye, front and back.

Make sure the vest is long enough to cover the waistband of your trousers at the sides (after you turn up the bottom).  DeVere covers "lengthening" in Plates 14-16.  If your front is already long enough, you may need to bevel this extension down to your existing length at bottom front.

Here's a fitting tip:  When pinning a garment together in front, I find it difficult to overlap it as you show.  An easier method is to pull the sides together flat, then "pinch" in to the desired center line and put pins in along it.  You are less likely to pin through the client's clothing, skin, or your own fingers as well Smiley.
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K Franklin
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2015, 04:08:28 PM »

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Do you think I should relieve a little around the neck...

What style of vest are you making?  It looks like a clerical or military collar would fit well, with a small seam taken from the existing neck line.  If you want a different style, look at Plates 15 and 16 for drafting instructions.

Quote
...and then relieve the armscye to allow freedom of movement for the shoulder?

Once you take a seam out of the scye I think the shoulder would be free enough; it's already got extra room behind due to the flat one-piece back.  However, the shoulder strap is wider than you need and might get into the scye of the coat at the top.  So, you could take off maybe an inch of width at the shoulder seam and just taper that down evenly to the bottom of the scye, front and back.

Make sure the vest is long enough to cover the waistband of your trousers at the sides (after you turn up the bottom).  DeVere covers "lengthening" in Plates 14-16.  If your front is already long enough, you may need to bevel this extension down to your existing length at bottom front.

Here's a fitting tip:  When pinning a garment together in front, I find it difficult to overlap it as you show.  An easier method is to pull the sides together flat, then "pinch" in to the desired center line and put pins in along it.  You are less likely to pin through the client's clothing, skin, or your own fingers as well Smiley.

Thank you very much! I'm not to the point of actually planning the vest. Right now it is just fitting Devere's basic draft. I think for my first stab I am going to make a linen single breasted, followed by a double breasted in black wool. Once those two are done, on to drafting via minister.

So, the shoulder strap clearly needs to be shortened via relieving on the armscye; but do you think I should also relieve a little along the collar? I think I may do another draft with a higher side and see how that fits. Thank you again for the tip on altering the balance of the vest via a calculated bust.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 04:12:08 PM by K Franklin » Logged
Jim_Ruley
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2015, 04:27:35 PM »

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do you think I should also relieve a little along the collar?

If you take a seam out of that neckline, I think the finished edge will be just about where you want it.

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I think I may do another draft with a higher side and see how that fits.

Raising the side point on both front and back will not change how the vest fits; it will just make it tighter under the arm.
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K Franklin
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2015, 04:30:33 PM »

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do you think I should also relieve a little along the collar?

If you take a seam out of that neckline, I think the finished edge will be just about where you want it.

Quote
I think I may do another draft with a higher side and see how that fits.

Raising the side point on both front and back will not change how the vest fits; it will just make it tighter under the arm.

Ah, I shan't touch the neckline then.

And my apologizes for being imprecise with my language, I think the side seems a bit low and might do with some raising. Plus it is an excuse for me to draft yet again for practice.
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K Franklin
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2015, 07:00:55 PM »

In order to properly learn the skied art and science of cutting and refine my skills of making-up, it was put to me by Ms. Elaine Kessinger the task of creating a vest in each of the main tailoring manuals of our period. Namely, I shall endeavor to create a vest according to:
   Louis Devere's 1866 "Handbook of Practical cutting on the Centre Point System."
   Wilbur S. Salisbury's 1865 "Sailisbury's System of Actual Measurement and Drafting, For All Styles of Coats, Upon Geometrical Principles."
   Edward Minister's 1856 "The Complete Guide to Practical Cutting."

A more accurate statement to probably make is "each of the three main tailoring manuals available to us from this period." Is that what you had meant?


So given the above we determined my measures to be as follows:

           Breast as Measured:  50
No. 1  Breast:  25
           Waist as Measured:  46
No. 2  Waist:  46
Centre-Point [2/5 of Waist]:  9 1/5
No. 3  Curve:  20 1/4
No. 4  Bust:  26
No. 5  Side:  6
No. 6  Opening:  13 1/2
No. 7  Front Length:  24 1/4

A problem you will no doubt encounter in the mockup stage, as has been experienced by some of us, is that using a Breast Measure of 25" (50") to determine the proportionate scale for drafting the pattern is going to potentially create some skewed results through the shoulders. The reason you run into this would be quickly noticed if you drafted a full range of patterns and nested them together. For sake of conversation, this could be a range of say 32 breast up to 50. The patterns thus created are, arguably, graduated from one another. However, as the sizes increase, the proportions of the draft remains the same, which is not the same thing as modern grading. They just keep getting proportionately larger, and don't necessarily align with how human beings are actually shaped in larger sizes (neither does modern grading in some cases).

Jim pointed out in one of his posts where he's personally began to get weird results at (I think it was somewhere around 44-46 breast). He also offers a solution for bringing the neckline back into a better range for the measures you're working off of. This is also discussed in The Victorian Tailor, with a fix included in there as well when working with the patterns found in it.



Mr. Stevens,

I am digging ahead to Minister's System and I found the intro by R.L. Shep mentioned this very issue in his appraisal of Minister.
"...The method is what is known as a breast measure system, that is to say, the various points are found by proportions of the breast measure.  In later editions, however, Messers. Minister, yielding to the teachings of experience, have cut their corpulent men's coats by divisions of a scale of proportionate to the front of the scye measure.  They found by experience that a corpulent man's coat, when cut by proportions of his breast measure, produced a coat too large behind, and consequently too small in front, and they have thus given the results of their ripened experience for the benefit of their students.  the system is simple in use, easily acquired, and extensively used by those who prefer the breast measure as a principle of cutting."
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Jim_Ruley
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2015, 08:02:12 PM »

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And my apologizes for being imprecise with my language, I think the side seems a bit low and might do with some raising. Plus it is an excuse for me to draft yet again for practice.

Well, "practice makes perfect" as they say.  However:  Can't you see that just raising the top of the side seam (my apologies if I've misunderstood) will not change the shape of any other part? 

If you want to see what this does, just sew a wedge of fabric under the scye at the top of the seam, and blend the curve smoothly into the scye at front and back.  You don't need to do the whole pattern over....
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Jim_Ruley
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2015, 08:11:25 PM »

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I am digging ahead to Minister's System and I found the intro by R.L. Shep mentioned this very issue in his appraisal of Minister.
"...The method is what is known as a breast measure system, that is to say, the various points are found by proportions of the breast measure.  In later editions, however, Messers. Minister, yielding to the teachings of experience, have cut their corpulent men's coats by divisions of a scale of proportionate to the front of the scye measure.  They found by experience that a corpulent man's coat, when cut by proportions of his breast measure, produced a coat too large behind, and consequently too small in front, and they have thus given the results of their ripened experience for the benefit of their students.  the system is simple in use, easily acquired, and extensively used by those who prefer the breast measure as a principle of cutting."

Each book (DeVere, Minister, and Salisbury) contains coat, waistcoat, and trouser systems.  These systems, while often related, are not necessarily the same; and what applies to coats may not apply equally well to vests.

Minister includes a corpulent man's vest draft in his Plate 18 that may be useful for you.  Unlike DeVere, he shapes the center seam of the back; and he anticipates more modern systems by showing how to accommodate a "pot belly" (in "vulgar parlance" as he terms it on p. 157) by straightening the front of the vest and cutting out a wedge at the level of the lower pocket welt.

Have fun with his proportions:  His coat system assumes an 18 inch breast (36 chest), but on p. 153 he states the waistcoat should be proportioned from a 19 inch breast.  Looks like your decimal scale will be coming in handy...
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K Franklin
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2015, 08:17:34 PM »

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And my apologizes for being imprecise with my language, I think the side seems a bit low and might do with some raising. Plus it is an excuse for me to draft yet again for practice.

Well, "practice makes perfect" as they say.  However:  Can't you see that just raising the top of the side seam (my apologies if I've misunderstood) will not change the shape of any other part? 

If you want to see what this does, just sew a wedge of fabric under the scye at the top of the seam, and blend the curve smoothly into the scye at front and back.  You don't need to do the whole pattern over....

Well I don't think it will change the shape, I just feel the armscye is a little deep? low?. I am also going to try to shrink the shoulder strap from 8" to 7". Hopefully that change will prevent interfering with the coats armscye.

And it is a good thing I am redrafting for practice,  I realized why I felt the collar was a touch tight, I had curved in 1 common inch, not one graduated inch in my last draft! Thank you again for the help. Once this is done, and made up. On to Minister!
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K Franklin
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 08:18:55 PM »

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I am digging ahead to Minister's System and I found the intro by R.L. Shep mentioned this very issue in his appraisal of Minister.
"...The method is what is known as a breast measure system, that is to say, the various points are found by proportions of the breast measure.  In later editions, however, Messers. Minister, yielding to the teachings of experience, have cut their corpulent men's coats by divisions of a scale of proportionate to the front of the scye measure.  They found by experience that a corpulent man's coat, when cut by proportions of his breast measure, produced a coat too large behind, and consequently too small in front, and they have thus given the results of their ripened experience for the benefit of their students.  the system is simple in use, easily acquired, and extensively used by those who prefer the breast measure as a principle of cutting."

Each book (DeVere, Minister, and Salisbury) contains coat, waistcoat, and trouser systems.  These systems, while often related, are not necessarily the same; and what applies to coats may not apply equally well to vests.

Minister includes a corpulent man's vest draft in his Plate 18 that may be useful for you.  Unlike DeVere, he shapes the center seam of the back; and he anticipates more modern systems by showing how to accommodate a "pot belly" (in "vulgar parlance" as he terms it on p. 157) by straightening the front of the vest and cutting out a wedge at the level of the lower pocket welt.

Have fun with his proportions:  His coat system assumes an 18 inch breast (36 chest), but on p. 153 he states the waistcoat should be proportioned from a 19 inch breast.  Looks like your decimal scale will be coming in handy...

It was the simple fact that Minister mentions and 18 inch breast, but then uses a 19 inch breast for the waistcoat, and the ensuring mathematical confusion that will likely reign that I figured I should attempt Devere first!
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